The Infidel - update w first group
- Thread starter alberta tactical rifle
- Start date
- Location
- calgary alberta
At the moment the main interest in making actions that will accomadate 308 Win type calibers and 338 Lapua, 300 Win type calibers. These are the bread and butter actions that keep the doors open.
The next actions we plan to build will be suitable for 50BMG, which can have the bolt face scaled down to deal with the 408 based cartridges, these are not calibers that sell as frequently so are a little lower on the priority list of things to make. I am hopeful that the 50 cal sized actions will be in the works by summer of 2012.
Wait a second!!! You paid Peter to chase away your clients with his charming personality??
Does that mean I get a bonus for convincing my friends to give you guys another chance?? Lol
Anyways, good to see the new actions are coming along. I still wish I could get the Infidel logo on a long action...
Well, as an owner of 4 custom actions I would be hard pressed to buy yours on a few points.
1) it is unproven( but does look really cool)
2) Your price is much much higher then your competition.
I bought 3 barnard actions , all with great triggers for $1420 each which included tax.
I also just received my Defiant( long action repeater)with spiral bolt,tear drop handle and polished SS 20 moa rail all for $1420 tax included..
I don't mean this in any way to be rude but am speaking as an average consumer of custom rifle/actions.....
1) it is unproven( but does look really cool)
2) Your price is much much higher then your competition.
I bought 3 barnard actions , all with great triggers for $1420 each which included tax.
I also just received my Defiant( long action repeater)with spiral bolt,tear drop handle and polished SS 20 moa rail all for $1420 tax included..
I don't mean this in any way to be rude but am speaking as an average consumer of custom rifle/actions.....
- Location
- calgary alberta
Actually our Infidel action IS proven with well in excess of 5000 rounds through it to date, but whatever.
My question is how and where do you get a Defiance action for less than I pay for them? I bought more than 50 actions from Defiance this year alone so would really like to know whether I am getting screwed by Glenn and why.
- Location
- calgary alberta
No offense taken but if you would be so kind as to share your intel with me by PM on your Defiance purchase I would appreciate it. As mentioned as a dealer I am paying that for 1 of his actions, so if he is selling to everyone a the same dealer price it would be nice to know.
Savages are the small block chevy's of the shooting world, sooo easy to hot rod and tweak. Not to mention cheap, and for shooting lots thats important.
With that said, if I come into a windfall of cash I will be keeping Rick a busy man for a few months, having held the Infidel personally I would LOVE to have one of my own.
http://w w w.defiancemachine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=59
I'd say the Rem 700 is the SB Chevy and Savage more like a Briggs & Stratton.
LMAO... Ouch!
Max Owner
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'd say the Rem 700 is the SB Chevy and Savage more like a Briggs & Stratton.
Maybe 20 years ago. Now.......?
You're right. Now the 700 is still the SB Chevy, and Savage is more like Homelite, or Poulin.
R.
If you have a Remington or a Savage donor action to work with, great but if you have a 700P or some Savage that shoots already, you're not going to pull it down just cuz and get a custom gun build on it. Us guys with our guns are or should be, at least, like women with their shoes. These guns are like our runner and casual shoes that we'd wear everyday, care a little less about then the ones we've been saving up to buy.
What I see in the new ATRS actions are issues addressed and built on that other action makers haven't cared enough to change and make better. Sure those actions work, Barnard, Defiance, Nesika, BAT, Surgen... but they all have something in common. And even though they vary slightly and in some cases they've invented a oval wheel and marketed it as better, from a practical stand point, though they do the job and with tighter tolerance then a Remington or Savage, they still miss the mark on some areas.
I think what has to happen is Rick should explain WHY his action is worth him spending the money to R & D and produce. He's not just making a Canadian made action for all of those guys that want to buy one made in Canada, he's building an action that, in my books is superior to almost everything out there. The one piece bolt, for example is made in-house which means it gets the same attention to detail as the action. It isn't farmed out like a lot of other companies that sell their actions as their own.
Surgen cuts their action with a one piece rail. They say it makes the action stronger but if you want to shoot further then a +20MOA rail has, you can't just pop it off and add a +30 or +40. Surgen actions, though custom have about as much slop built into them as a Remington and really haven't changed anything aside from the rail. And if that rail isn't dead straight, which in the past there have been a few, and you have to either shim the scope ring or try to send it back for warranty, have fun with that. Sending an action back to the states for warranty replacement isn't that easy.
Barnard reinvented the wheel in a bunch of ways but with a trigger system that is nice but replacement parts are from them. The actions really only fit the stocks Ian R. sells without a TON of work and if you want to drop it into a different stock, forget it. They are a very smooth action but in my opinion, the port is tiny and it's a pain in the ass. They don't have a feed ramp built into the action either and for sharp shouldered ammo like 22-250 and a lot of other rounds, they recommend you carve a feed ramp into the barrel which cuts into the chamber. The recoil lug isn't pinned either I don't think which, for a custom action would have been doable during the build process.
Nesika actually cut a notch into their extractor claw to change the angle of extraction so it would accommodate too small a port. That was their answer to their problems with extraction. Seriously??? Those actions are over 2G a piece. Ask me how I know...
The list goes on and on and on. What Rick needs to do is point out WHY his action is different then anything else you can buy out there.
I believe in buying product that makes sense from a practical point of view and if I have to pay a little more, fine a couple extra hundred is worth it for me to get a product that someone has had the nightmare of a time perfecting.
My 2 cents.
What I see in the new ATRS actions are issues addressed and built on that other action makers haven't cared enough to change and make better. Sure those actions work, Barnard, Defiance, Nesika, BAT, Surgen... but they all have something in common. And even though they vary slightly and in some cases they've invented a oval wheel and marketed it as better, from a practical stand point, though they do the job and with tighter tolerance then a Remington or Savage, they still miss the mark on some areas.
I think what has to happen is Rick should explain WHY his action is worth him spending the money to R & D and produce. He's not just making a Canadian made action for all of those guys that want to buy one made in Canada, he's building an action that, in my books is superior to almost everything out there. The one piece bolt, for example is made in-house which means it gets the same attention to detail as the action. It isn't farmed out like a lot of other companies that sell their actions as their own.
Surgen cuts their action with a one piece rail. They say it makes the action stronger but if you want to shoot further then a +20MOA rail has, you can't just pop it off and add a +30 or +40. Surgen actions, though custom have about as much slop built into them as a Remington and really haven't changed anything aside from the rail. And if that rail isn't dead straight, which in the past there have been a few, and you have to either shim the scope ring or try to send it back for warranty, have fun with that. Sending an action back to the states for warranty replacement isn't that easy.
Barnard reinvented the wheel in a bunch of ways but with a trigger system that is nice but replacement parts are from them. The actions really only fit the stocks Ian R. sells without a TON of work and if you want to drop it into a different stock, forget it. They are a very smooth action but in my opinion, the port is tiny and it's a pain in the ass. They don't have a feed ramp built into the action either and for sharp shouldered ammo like 22-250 and a lot of other rounds, they recommend you carve a feed ramp into the barrel which cuts into the chamber. The recoil lug isn't pinned either I don't think which, for a custom action would have been doable during the build process.
Nesika actually cut a notch into their extractor claw to change the angle of extraction so it would accommodate too small a port. That was their answer to their problems with extraction. Seriously??? Those actions are over 2G a piece. Ask me how I know...
The list goes on and on and on. What Rick needs to do is point out WHY his action is different then anything else you can buy out there.
I believe in buying product that makes sense from a practical point of view and if I have to pay a little more, fine a couple extra hundred is worth it for me to get a product that someone has had the nightmare of a time perfecting.
My 2 cents.
I wasn't going to respond further in this thread but when you mislead others I feel it is warranted.
Barnard actions ARE NOT over 2 grand a piece as you claim( NOT EVEN CLOSE)unless you are talking about the 50 cal but then how much is your 50 cal action? Compare apples to apples. The Barnard is $1420 tax included( for most of their models) and comes with a very very good trigger( no need for a Jewel). I also think there are many many competitive shooters around the world who consider the Barnard the best action available regardless of price (and has been well proven in competition).
Also, it is just common sense; If you are trying to break into any niche market you have to;
1) offer a product just as good or better( perhaps it is, perhaps not)
2) it has to be cheaper or at least competitive( at $1900 plus tax it isn't, not even close).
As it is I am sure you will sell some but not many.There simply isn't enough incentive at present for most potential customers to pay $1900 plus tax for an ACTION with virtually no track record, even if it is really good.
- Location
- calgary alberta
I think you may have misread Glocks post?
I believe it was the Nesika action he was referring to as in the over 2K price, which they are. I have several and I know he does too, now granted these were purchased in 2008 when our dollars brought .80 USD.
Also just to clear something up, since this thread was started almost 2 years ago, we have refined our machining and as I recently posted we are trying to come in at a price point similar to which our closest competitors actions sell for (in Canada) which is in the $1600.0 range. This will still just be a projection until we get into full production.
IF you read my posts from this year, a few pages back, I stated that we STILL have not determined what these would sell for yet.
What a competitors US price is has nothing to do with things here, there are additional costs in importing US made things that it seems everyone fails to include or think of.
Pricing can not be based on the prototypes as they take minimally 10 times longer to make than the ones you build after all the final programs are written and have every aspect worked out. Only THEN 1 can figure out what final cost is so as to establish what something will sell for.
I fail to see why you think that we should try and offer something that is new, "cheaper"? We won't be in business long if we sell everything at cost or below just so the "cheap" guys will buy it.
My plan is to be in business for a very long time, that way in the unlikely event that 1 of our products does have an issue we can deal with it unlike some companies who are no longer in business and thereby leaving their customers spinning in the wind with a broken gun.
1 MAJOR advantage of anything made in Canada is that it is serviced IN Canada, sending a regulated item like a firearm back to the foreign country it was made in for repair is NOT an easy task.
There will always be skeptics who will jump to a conclusion about something new, like smokeless gunpowder. BUT those who opt to educate themselves about a new product may be pleasantly surprised
I am glad you are happy with your Barnards, they are decent foreign made actions to be sure. But wouldn't it be nice to try and help support the Canadian economy rather than some foreign country?
I agree. That term frustrates me. There is nothing special about aircraft anything. Just a catchy marketing phrase. Anyway I better read on as I'm only on page 10. Great read so far and the suspense is killing me.
