Any 358 Win Lovers out there?
- Thread starter Mutt58
- Start date
My recent manufacture 358Win stainless Hawkeye is 12".
My understanding is that before approx 2000 all 35s (358, 350 and 35 Whelen) were made 16" twist - essentially tang safety versions.
However after that 12" twist was used on only the 350 RemMags and 358Wins made in the last decade. The 35 Whelen M77 Mk ll since 2000 were all specified to have 16" twist but some 12" have actually been reported by members here who checked their rifles. Others here who have checked report 16. Limited edition #1 stainless are reported actually 12" - blued version now being sold probably the same.
Checking the individual rifle itself - recent run 35 Whelens especially - is almost needed to know twist with confidence given Ruger's practice of changing it up at will.
My understanding is that before approx 2000 all 35s (358, 350 and 35 Whelen) were made 16" twist - essentially tang safety versions.
However after that 12" twist was used on only the 350 RemMags and 358Wins made in the last decade. The 35 Whelen M77 Mk ll since 2000 were all specified to have 16" twist but some 12" have actually been reported by members here who checked their rifles. Others here who have checked report 16. Limited edition #1 stainless are reported actually 12" - blued version now being sold probably the same.
Checking the individual rifle itself - recent run 35 Whelens especially - is almost needed to know twist with confidence given Ruger's practice of changing it up at will.
I would love to have a Ruger international 358 win.
I dont think they were ever made though
My exact thought, stainless international in .358 Win or .350 Rem Mag, in a walnut stock, just about perfect!
I have always liked the 35s. I sold my 35 Whelen Rem 7600 and am now selling my 358 Mauser. I may not hunt again. I still have a 35 rem in Rem 14 and a 356 Win in M94AE. (A rimmed 358).
My son had a free pick of all my guns for a deer hunt. Out of several hundred he chose the Rem14 - one of the oldest.
My son had a free pick of all my guns for a deer hunt. Out of several hundred he chose the Rem14 - one of the oldest.
Arise apparition, arise....
There, now that I've raised this thread from the dead...
Got some more 358 Frontier results. I went out today even though I shouldn't have.
My intent was simply to do some pressure testing today, conditions were terrible. Snow at times heavy, wind 22 gusting 30+ mph. Just for $hits & giggles I put an IPSC target out at 300 yds as an aiming point for firing over the chrono. I was laughing when I went down afterwards and saw that 50% of the shots were on paper. I only fired 1 round of each charge weight.
Results:
BULLET: 200 Grain Hornady SP
CASE: Winchester 358
PRIMER: CCI #34
POWDER: Ramshot TAC
CRIMP: Medium
CHRONOGRAPHED: 25 Feb 2012, ~640 feet ASL
CONDITIONS: Mod-Heavy snow, ~1 deg C
CHRONOGRAPH: ProChrono Digital
FIREARM: Ruger Frontier
COAL: Seated to cannelure
VELOCITY:
46 Grains - 2207 fps
47 - 2275
48 - 2290
48.5 - 2275
49 - 2302
49.5 - 2335
50 - 2355
50.5 - 2411 - Slightly sticky extraction
51 - 2437 - Slightly sticky extraction
51.5 - 2433 - Slightly sticky extraction
I also fired 3 rounds of my hunting load as a control which typically averages ~2325: 47.5 grains of H4895, averaged 2323 fps.
My conclusion is that I think I will stay with my H4895. Crunching the numbers, with a velocity of 2300, I get ~218 yard PBR. If I plug in 2400, I get a PBR of ~228 yards. Difference at 300 yds is 1.5 inches.
The only gains I can see with TAC is ~50-75 fps and better metering through measures. I hand weigh all my hunting loads so metering is moot for me, leaving only velocity gains as a pro for using TAC. I've read that TAC might be temp sensitive as well which detracts from its appeal for me. H4895 is very temp stable and gives me good accuracy, I can't see enough reason to switch to the TAC. I think I'll stick with my Re15 in the 350 and not bother testing the TAC, again because I feel the gain if any, would be very little.
There, now that I've raised this thread from the dead...
Got some more 358 Frontier results. I went out today even though I shouldn't have.
My intent was simply to do some pressure testing today, conditions were terrible. Snow at times heavy, wind 22 gusting 30+ mph. Just for $hits & giggles I put an IPSC target out at 300 yds as an aiming point for firing over the chrono. I was laughing when I went down afterwards and saw that 50% of the shots were on paper. I only fired 1 round of each charge weight.
Results:
BULLET: 200 Grain Hornady SP
CASE: Winchester 358
PRIMER: CCI #34
POWDER: Ramshot TAC
CRIMP: Medium
CHRONOGRAPHED: 25 Feb 2012, ~640 feet ASL
CONDITIONS: Mod-Heavy snow, ~1 deg C
CHRONOGRAPH: ProChrono Digital
FIREARM: Ruger Frontier
COAL: Seated to cannelure
VELOCITY:
46 Grains - 2207 fps
47 - 2275
48 - 2290
48.5 - 2275
49 - 2302
49.5 - 2335
50 - 2355
50.5 - 2411 - Slightly sticky extraction
51 - 2437 - Slightly sticky extraction
51.5 - 2433 - Slightly sticky extraction
I also fired 3 rounds of my hunting load as a control which typically averages ~2325: 47.5 grains of H4895, averaged 2323 fps.
My conclusion is that I think I will stay with my H4895. Crunching the numbers, with a velocity of 2300, I get ~218 yard PBR. If I plug in 2400, I get a PBR of ~228 yards. Difference at 300 yds is 1.5 inches.
The only gains I can see with TAC is ~50-75 fps and better metering through measures. I hand weigh all my hunting loads so metering is moot for me, leaving only velocity gains as a pro for using TAC. I've read that TAC might be temp sensitive as well which detracts from its appeal for me. H4895 is very temp stable and gives me good accuracy, I can't see enough reason to switch to the TAC. I think I'll stick with my Re15 in the 350 and not bother testing the TAC, again because I feel the gain if any, would be very little.
gunrunner8
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, B.C.
IMHO I think that your 16"long barrel and tight 10"twist limits the velocity.
I have Win mod 88 rifle in 358Win with 20" barrel and 16"twist and I am getting 2600fps shooting 200gr Rem CL over 51gr of TAC with no trace of high pressure and excelent accuracy. I tried more powder but accuracy nod wasn't there. The TAC might be not as temperature stable as H4895 (?) but my point of impact between +15C and -10C is only 1"-1,5" lower at 200m so I am not to concerned about it. IMO TAC ball powder made in Belgium measures wery well, has high energy, is temperature stable enough and the best overall for that combination.
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It's a given that less barrel = less velocity... I'm not trying to get the same results as someone with a 20" tube...
Taking your 51 grains for 2600fps, I got 2440 from 51 grains of TAC with 4" less barrel. That works out to ~40 fps/inch which is in the ballpark for velocity loss/inch of barrel. I don't think I would buy into the twist rate having much of anything to do with velocity loss in this case. You're using a different bullet with a different bearing surface too
By the way, the primers from all my cases didn't show a hint of pressure either, the slightly sticky bolt lift and extraction is what I took note of...
My concern with temperature sensitivity isn't so much with POI, it's when you work up a load that's safe on one day then get into the unsafe zone on another with a large temperature swing.
See the shine on the 50.5 case on the "W-W" and the 51.5 case on the "IN" of WIN... That's not light playing tricks, that's from sticky bolt lift.
gunrunner8
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, B.C.
Well, IMHO when everything is equal the tighter barrel twist will cause early spike in pressure compared to slower twist, thats why gain barrel twist will outperform regular barrel velocity wise. The other thing against supper short barrels in that cal is bullet performance. The 200gr SP 358 cal bullet traveling 2600fps with 200yds "0" has dropped 11" or so at 300yds and the same bullet doing 2300fps drops 15" or so with 200yds "0". So far so good, the 358Win is shooting flat enough to drop any game at that distance. The troubling point is that faster bullet is still doing 1800fps at 300yds but slower one only 1550fps....and I dont think its enough speed for the bullet to expand properly and at that speed it may perform as a solid bullet....BTW I limit myself to 300yds while hunting with any rifle anyway.
gunrunner8
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, B.C.
On the other hand Nosler used to manufacture 35cal 225gr Bal Tip bullet with 500+ BC! That s**ker traveling very modest 2300fps-2400fps from 358Win at the muzzle would be still traveling 1600+fps at 500yds! and that bullet design was guaranteed to expand at that speed. To bad it's no longer produced, that thing in 358NM would be big game killer at past 1k in the hands of competent rifleman.
I limit myself to max 200 yards with this particular rifle and thats stretching it. This rifle is my version of an east coast walkin gun
My intent was to be a little different than ye ol 30-30. With most shots no longer than 100 yards where I hunt down here I wanted a fat, heavy, slow moving bullet to limit meat damage all in a short, quick handling platform. The 358 Frontier fits that bill quite nicely The 200 grain leaving the muzzle at 2330 did a nice job this fall at ~60 yards
gunrunner8
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, B.C.
I limit myself to max 200 yards with this particular rifle and thats stretching it. This rifle is my version of an east coast walkin gun
The 200 grain leaving the muzzle at 2330 did a nice job this fall at ~60 yards
Congratulations! nobody is going to argue with that result....I killed the moose with my 358 and 200gr Rem CL two years ago at 125yds or so with almost complete side to side penetration. He made a doz steps and colapsed. I still have the bullet: perfect mushroom and 79% retained weight. Also I carry spare magazine ( 8 rds capacity Colyer ) loaded with 250gr Hornady RNIL for really heavy bush hunting....
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