Norinco M4 Quality?

If you're going to buy one and it's not mail order but at the counter, have the salesman/woman bring out a couple for you to look at. I would take my time going over it and work the action a few times on each one just to see which one is smoothest. Take it out to the range and make it go through its paces. One of the links above said Duracoat. Really good idea. A friend of mine has had one for years now and it's a real winner. With a crate of bulk .223 you'll end up with a firearm you probably will always keep. Have fun! :)
 
They seem to be a great starter AR, and the price is certainly hard to beat. I'm not a big fan of the finish, quality or tolerances - but again, for the money...

Considering the number of trouble free rounds sent downrange by CGN members, I would say the quality is fine. My late model CQ-A even has a decent finish on it, certainly no worse than anything else I have seen in the lower tier price range for AR's.


Mark
 
Wow so this seems to be a really good buy. Look like this will be my choice thanks all fo the comments. Can't wait to upgrade once o have it.
 
Considering the number of trouble free rounds sent downrange by CGN members, I would say the quality is fine. My late model CQ-A even has a decent finish on it, certainly no worse than anything else I have seen in the lower tier price range for AR's.

I'd probably classify that more as dependability/durability than quality. In my mind, quality is the type of parts/components used - and the Norc isn't on par with something like an LMT or Stag. That being said, I would rate it higher than an NEA - and certainly less problematic.

You will not regret it.

Yep, lots of satisfied owners.
 
Firing pin retaining pin had to be replaced on the 10.5" as the original pin wouldn't go back in after some cleaning...........and that's about it.



Just do it man.
 
Hey, Im looking to get an AR typer firearm but really am not sure what to get I was looking for a little lower in price not jumping into $3500 rifles just yet.

What does everyone think of the Norinco M4?

It's the Glock of the ARs. It's built like a tank. If you are all about a fancy finish look elsewhere. If you are all about a gun that just keeps running and is accurate with little maintenance then this is your AR. Had mine out again today. Thousands and thousands of rounds through it and still not one hiccup. The only other firearm I have witnessed with endless reliability praises from a large number of shooters is the Glock 17.
 
The 3 I have are confirmation of what I've been saying for quite a while.

China is emerging as the major manufacturing super power in the world, while the Western world kills itself with excessive, democratically approved big government regulation.

I bought one of the first $900 ones from Lever Arms that had a crappy paint job on it, and 2 more of the ones bought in by CanAm and Marstar that were relatively nicely parkerized for $700.

Funny how the quality AND the price went down, although I suspect the initial run on them at the increased price/lower quality was the reward some vendors reaped for being early-birds in the market, while the lower prices/increased quality on the later releases was the reward smart buyers reaped for being patient (capitalism IS the best economic system in the world).

Even still, with the "low quality" first batch - besides the crappy paint job and the rear site needing to be cranked hard right on it, my first CQ runs like a champ.

I did have one problem with it yesterday - after running my CMMG .22 conversion kit on it and letting it sit for a few months without cleaning it, my first round of .223 didn't cycle at all (I suspect the gas tube was pretty fouled up). The second round blew it out, no problem, and I had no problems with it the rest of the day.
 
14.5.

Won't regret the purchase as others said. Can use the extra cash for ammo and optics. No issues with mine. 1000's of 223 rounds. Lost count of how many 22 rounds I shot with it.
 
What barrel length do you guys suggest on the Norinco and why?
After all that I have read I am going to buy one sometime in the next while.
Thanks,
Glen

14.5 x 2

IMO, if you get a 10.5" you might as well just get a carbine kit for a handgun.

You lose too much velocity/range out of anything shorter than a 14.5" to justify having a rifle calibre and 14.5" feels pretty good for doing CQB style shooting.

I have a friend who shot M193 out of his 10.5" nameless carbine, and IIRC, he was about 100fps slower than my Nork.

Maybe it's not an accurate comparison, but with a 10.5" barrel, if you plan to shoot out to 200 yards, you're basically giving yourself a 25 yard handicap compared even to a 14.5" barrel.

M193ballisticchart2.jpg


An interesting article from another forum to that affect as well (not that it matters what the fragmentation threshold is - given that our laws make it illegal to shoot at anything living with an AR - either for hunting or self defence):

From: forums.second-amendment.org/index.php?topic=636.0

(with some great ballistic charts for various 5.56mm loads)

I don't understand what the fragmentation threshold represents exactly; the bullet fragments after it passes below the stated velocity? And above that velocity it continues to punch through? Or is it the other way around?

Other way around. Velocity is an important component in the light 5.56's terminal ballistics. But before I get to that, let me explain something:

In the end, yaw is what causes fragmentation. All bullets will yaw, regardless of caliber, weight, length, construction, etc. However, all those factors will indeed dictate how bullets yaw, how rapidly they do it after contacting tissue, how many times they tumble, whether or not the jacket comes off or they break apart, etc. A very balanced bullet, for example (that is to say, one that has a centered center of gravity), wont yaw near as much as a boat tail with a long ogive, as is the case with many 5.56 rounds. Other factors such as precession (wobble in flight; a characteristic also shared amongst all bullets) determine, at least partially, how a bullet will yaw, but these things are relatively random and unpredictible...But I digress...

Because the 5.56 is long and has a very rearward center of gravity, it's easy to create conditions for the bullet to exhibit what you might call "excessive" yaw. And because the 5.56 is also skinny and thus not very strong, the centrifugal forces encountered by the bullet when it yaws literally cause it to explode. Bullets are meant to fly in a path with zero deviation to the bullets' axis after all, and it simply cannot take the forces brought upon it when it spins through a resistive material, such as human flesh. This condition of explosion is exacerbated all the more by the cannelure which causes a weak point in both the jacket and the lead core itself.

And here's the but...

But, in order for the bullet to fragment well, it needs to be cooking along as fast as possible. It's simple physics: the faster the bullet is moving, the greater the forces on the bullet during rotation. You feel the same force when going around a corner in your car. When you do it slowly, you don't feel the "pull" to the outside as much as you do when you're squealing your tires around the same turn. Take the turn fast enough and you can press your body up against the door...Or even skid off the road into the ditch or worse yet, roll the car!

The key point is, the faster, the greater the force. Because the 5.56 is such a skinny little booger, when it yaws doing 3,000 fps, the little bullet just can't take it and breaks apart like a grenade.

And you bring up the other but...

forums.second-amendment.org/index.php?topic=636.0

Quote from: redstarcluster on April 12, 2008, 11:13:58 PM
And on a side note for Recoil, I had never heard that 7.62 has worse impact performance at close range than 5.56 does. That's odd to me. Is that because of the FMJ? I thought that bigger and slower meant more effect?

If we're talking about fragmentation here, that's correct: the 7.62 is a much worse performer than the 5.56. Keep in mind that the 5.56's design is fundimental in creating conditions for fragmentation and apply that knowledge to a comparison of the 7.62 projectile. Even though it's a similar design, typically a rebated boat tail Spitzer with a relatively long ogive, it's still a much "meatier" bullet. Since it's thicker, it's much stronger and therefore less inclined to come apart.

As far as velocity goes, it's also true that there's an inverse relationship between terminal performance of both rounds. Basically, the faster the 5.56 goes, the better it will fragment (a side effect of bullet dimensions/design). The slower the 5.56 goes, the more it will "ice pick" (pass straight through). Conversely, the faster the 7.62 goes, the more it will ice pick due to it's higher mass. The slower the 7.62 goes, the more it will yaw, distort, expand or otherwise do something other than maintain straight and level flight.

Remember, the 5.56 is a really s**tty round to shoot at people as far as mass (energy) and expansion (tissue damage) goes. Were it not for fragmentation, it'd be nearly worthless for use on humans. Fragmentation is what kills with the 5.56. This is why we see so many horror stories about the AR-15/M16's failure in combat: many of these shootings were done beyond the effective range of the cartridge. Keeping targets within 100-150 yards (before the bullet slows down) we see the performance of the round, and therefore the weapon, go up dramatically.

Conversely again, the 7.62 relies on it's extra mass and possibly expansion, depending on bullet design, to do it's killing. All things equal, bigger bullet means bigger wound cavity. Slow the bullet down enough so the mass isn't shoving the bullet through the target, and the bullet will tumble and go every which way, creating a wound cavity larger still.

Summed up, where the 5.56 relies on design to do it's killing, the 7.62 relies on mass. The 5.56 doesn't have the mass to damage tissue, but it's fragmentation creates a disproportionate wound cavity. The 7.62 doesn't fragment much, but it has extra mass to damage tissue, but that same mass will also carry the bullet through the target at high enough velocities.

Thus: 5.56 = best up close. 7.62 = best at distance.

This all reminds me of a story my grandfather told me of the "good ol' days." After he returned from the war retired from his many years in the Army, he got a job as a state highway engineer. One day, they were out surveying for a new road up along the U.S.-Canadian border when him and his two buddies saw a large buck up on top of a hill not even 100 yards away, looking down at them. Being that this was probably in the late 1950's and they were out west, everyone carried a gun in their vehicles--even work vehicles.

Well, this partner of my grandfather's had this new .30 caliber wunder-gun that he'd just had built around some super-duper high velocity, heavy bullet wildcat cartridge that, of course, he hand loaded for. So this guy runs to the car, pops the trunk and pulls out this shiny new virgin cannon that he was so proud of. Extracting a handfull of his uber-hot handloads, he filled the magazine, jacked one in, took aim and POW! Lots of fire, lots of noise, lots of recoil...Deer still standing.

Of course, my grandfather and the other guy were just laughing their asses off...This guy had been bragging this super rifle up for days and when he gets his chance at an easy kill, he misses. Not to be outdone of course, the guy cycles the bolt, takes aim again and BOOM! Lots of fire, lots of noise, lots of recoil...Deer still standing. Pissed off now, the guy throws another round into the chamber, aims and pulls the trigger. Same deal. The deer is just standing there wondering what the Hell these weirdos are doing.

Apparently the deer had enough after 3-5 shots (I can't recall exactly), and he trotted off down the other side of the hill. My grandfather and his buddy were laughing hysterically and this guy with the rifle is just flabbergasted. How could he miss? So out of curiosity, I guess, they trotted up this hill to see where the deer went. I reckon the guy wanted another lick at it. Once they got up there, they found a pool of blood right where the deer had been standing and a large blood trail leading down the other side. Naturally, this was very odd, so they followed it. Apparently they followed for some time, probably several hundred yards.

And guess what they found at the end of the trail?

They found one very dead buck with exactly as many holes in his sides as the old boy had fired at it.

This super hot .30 caliber wildcat was pushing those bullets along so fast that they never had a chance to expand and/or tumble and tear the deer's guts up. They just went in and out like the thing wasn't even in the way. As far as the deer was concerned, he probably felt a bit of a sting (the act of being shot in itself is relatively painless), but was none the wiser of his impending death and just stood there wondering about the strange fellows in the valley with that loud noise maker.

This humorous anecdote demonstrates precisely why the 7.62 needs to the chance to slow down a bit to be as effective as possible.

Hope this thorougly answers your question.

One thing I'll point out - PMC Bronze seems to be a pretty popular brand of .223 ammo.

I have a few thousand rounds on hand that I bought when I first bought my Nork (given that it was $600 less than some of the other alternatives, and PMC looked cheap).

I'm not sure if the 55-gn FMJ-BT ballistics would be different than that used in M193 - but out of my Nork with it's 14.5" I was only pushing about 2650 FPS with PMC Bronze- so if, for whatever reason, you found yourself needing to use your Nork to shoot at living tissue and you found yourself with something like PMC Bronze (or some other lower velocity ammo - with expanding ammo that is) - your target probably won't suffer the kind of catastrophic wound cavity you'd hope for (a .22 LR might even be better).

We can all hope that someday the AR will be made non-res and you'll be able to legally hunt with it... but if that is ever the case, I would question whether using a 14.5" would be humane or not... maybe you can use your imagination at to some other possible applications of the rifle.

As a frame of comparison as well - loaded up with Norinco 5.56 from Frontier's 1600 case - I was pulling off 3070 FPS and with my own reloads of 25.6 gn A2230 with a 55gn FMJBT I was pulling off 2950 FPS.
 
Last edited:
I have to echo the others, I bought my first AR this year. It was a 2011 Norinco M4 and the finish was just fine. I bought it used with some Magpul hardware on it so it already looked better! It is a great starter rifle to get you interested and now I want to build a more custom rig!
 
Back
Top Bottom