10/22 Custom Receivers

Dr.Lector said:
As above. Dlask does not supply v-bloks yet.
They may make some in the future.
I asked around, your barrel was matched to the receiver
but you have to put the v-block/screws yourself.
By this time, you probably have it already in your hands.
Click to expand...


How do you know it was my particular barrel and receiver? I did get it already. I got in a VQ v-block but the VQ trigger kit and bolt are on backorder. Where do I get the pin set for the trigger housing and the v-block set screws from?
 
Dr.Lector said:
The "whole" story would be very boring for most of the people here.
Click to expand...
There is a lot of talk and posts on rimfirecentral about aftermarket bolts in aftermarket receivers. Almost of them are complaints about the very poor fit of these bolts in receivers like MOA, Tactical Inovations, NoDak, and everything else except for Kid and Dlask.
I want to know how Dlask managed to have such a good record while maintaining a tight clearance between bolt and receiver.
If you can explain this, I can assure you it will not be boring for me. Thank you
 
The complete story of the 10/22 bolt fit is a bit long.
Anybody who is not
genuinely interested in the particular problems
of the 10/22 bolt, you may want to skip the next posts,
as it will be really boring for you.



HOW THE BOLT WORKS (SIDE-TO-SIDE)

The recoil-spring guide-rod is eccentric relative to the axis of the bolt.
This causes the bolt to work and rest in a rotated position
(mostly in a horizontal plane).
There is also some rotation of the bolt in 2 vertical planes,
but I will not dissect that aspect in here.
Mainly because of the reason above (eccentric recoil spring),
but also because other forces applied on the bolt,
if you look at the gun from above,
the bolt tends to rotate in an horizontal plane.
In addition to the eccentric spring,
in the forward home position (battery), the extractor
pushes the front of the bolt to the right, and that will
add to the bolt tendency of rotation
(clockwise direction if you look at the gun from above).
In blowback (recoil), the spent case
will push the bolt even more (in the same direction of rotation).
However, during the same blowback stroke,
because the bolt cocks the hammer,
the reaction of the hammer against the bolt
will oppose the clockwise rotation to some extent.
This is the only significant force that will try to rotate
the bolt in the other direction.

After cocking the hammer and during the forward stroke,
the spring tension,
the action of stripping of a new cartridge from the mag,
and the action of chambering (that sometime
can be difficult and energy consuming)
will the cause the bolt to resume its clockwise rotation
and there is nothing to oppose that tendency of rotation.
Only at the end of the forward movement of the bolt,
when it reaches the breach face, that rotated position
may be disrupted for a short while when the bolt face re-aligns
with the breach face.

The changes of the relative bolt position (rotation)
are transmited to the internal walls
of the receiver. You will “feel” that movement
of the gun after each shot when you shoot from a bench,
and you can also “see” the movement when you look through the scope.
It is that annoying clickety-click movement
that always rotates your gun in a horizontal plane
when the gun cycles after each shot.

As I said before, that cocking of the hammer is the only
important occurrence
when the action of the recoil spring is somewhat negated,
after which the bolt strongly rotates to the right
(during the forward stroke).
As I said in the beginning,
even when it rests in the battery position,
the bolt is rotated
(mainly under the action of the eccentric recoil spring
but also under the action of the extractor).

All of the above is like a fact of life,
we can do almost nothing about it.
Only re-designing the whole action of the gun
may get rid of it.

The guide rod will not stop the bolt from rotation,
since it is rested at the back only – and that is
made on purpose, so it can rotate together with the bolt.
(If the guide rod was captive at the front as well,
there would be a lot of wear between it
and the charging handle).
So, other than the inside of the walls of the receiver,
there is nothing else to restrict/limit
the bolt rotation in horizontal plane.
 
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For about 45 years, there were few changes in the
clearance between OEM bolt and receiver,
but not that important.


BOLT IN RECEIVER SIDE-TO-SIDE CLEARANCE

The BOLT (regular OEM Ruger) measures
about .932”-.937” as it comes from the factory.
The average can be considered about .934”
(but it may be narrower than that if the bolt has been
re-finished, re-worked, re-surfaced,
straightened by machining/grinding, etc.
I've seen many re-worked bolts around .928”.).

The RECEIVER (original Ruger) is a very different story.
Being die-cast, the inside “pocket” is very slightly tapered,
so it can be removed from the casting die.
Consequently, at the top, the pocket is narrower,
and at the skirt, it is wider (but not by very much).
So what exactly your measurement is depends
largely on where exactly you measure (how far from the top).
In addition, your pocket width will closely follow
the WEAR of that particular casting die the receiver comes from.

The width of the regular Ruger receiver
when it is stripped of paint
(until and including most of 2009 production)
is at the grand average of about .970” .
So, the real clearance between the
factory bolt and factory receiver
is AS AN AVERAGE about .970” - .934” = .036”
(regardless of the feeler gauge that fits between them).

A lot of people (Mysticplayer included) feel that
the excessive clearance between OEM bolt and OEM receiver
will cause a lesser degree of the gun accuracy.
Part of the reason for that assumption perhaps would be that
the bolt may land in battery
every time in a slightly different position.




Until 3-4 years ago, the most popular method to get rid
of the excessive clearance in the OEM Ruger receiver
was to glue (epoxy) a strip of shim stock on the inside of the
left-side wall of the receiver (opposite to the ejection port).
 
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US AFTERMARKET BOLTS/RECEIVERS


In order to compensate
for the excessive side-to-side clearance
and to reduce the play between the bolt/receiver,
most US manufacturers of aftermarket receivers
made the pocket narrower (sometimes maybe too narrow).
With the OEM Ruger bolt, those aftermarket
receivers worked well most of the times.
However, at the same time,
an aftermarket BOLT manufacturer (Kidd) was trying
to compensate for the excessive clearance,
making wider bolts for the OEM Ruger receivers.
Those bolts worked VERY WELL with the OEM Ruger receivers.
They did what they were designed to do:
reduce the excessive clearance in the Ruger receiver.
At the same time, they worked very well
in the Kidd receiver as well, as anybody would expect.
The real trouble begun when people started to use
some aftermarket narrower receivers
together with some aftermarket wider bolts (mostly Kidd).
Then, the whole sh!t broke lose.
The jammed/binding bolts, the cycling problems,
the scraped receivers invaded rimfirecentral dot com.
The peak of those reported problems
were about around April (?) this year.
Most of those threads were edited/nuked,
since Kidd was a sponsor and such threads were
sending the wrong message, but also because
of the tone of some ignorant posts in those threads.
The manufacturer of the wider bolt (Kidd) was
very courteous, responsive and extremely quick
and did everything possible
to exchange all the wider bolts that were sent back to them.
They replaced them with bolts of narrower (regular) dimensions.
However, many of the wider ones still float around.

I have measured a lot of the Kidd early (wider)
bolts and I didn't find one single thing that was wrong.
It is a bolt very well designed and very well made.
As I said, these early wider bolts work very well in
what they were designed for: Ruger and Kidd receivers.
However, if the Kidd wider bolt was assembled
on OTHER US aftermarket receivers, then there were some
issues that resulted in a total loss of happiness.
That was caused by the fact that the manufacturers
of these aftermarket receivers ALREADY made their
product narrower (sometimes TOO narrow)
so they reduce the clearance (side play)
when used with the Ruger factory bolt.
So, both the Kidd wide bolt AND the aftermarket receivers
separately addressed the same issue, BUT when used together,
the result was something with not enough side clearance.


Even today you can read a lot of threads like this:

www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361458
www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364370
www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365954

The problem was not the wider Kidd bolt.

Most of the time, the real problem was the attempt to match together
two things that were NOT designed to work together.
 
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DLASK RECEIVERS

The Dlask receiver was designed at the time when
Kidd was flooding the market with the wider bolt
(and also, at the same time, Ruger was changing
some dimensions in its MIM bolt, but this is
a different story and I will not discuss it in here).
It was expected that a considerable number of people
would want to use the wider Kidd bolt in the Dlask receiver.
After many discussions I had with Mr. Joe Dlask,
and very careful consideration of everything that can happen,
the width of the pocket in the Dlask receiver
was aimed at about .954”-.955”
(after final surface finish and anodizing).

That way, the Dlask receiver would take both
a Ruger bolt or a Kidd wide bolt:
the average OEM Ruger bolt of 2009 production
will have an AVERAGE clearance
of about .954” - .934” = .020”.
In my experience with about 20 or so Kidd oversized bolts
assembled in Dlask receivers, the Kidd wider bolt
will have a clearance of about .011” or so (I think),
which is more than ok if you clean/lube the action.
Also, an important reason the gun works ok with such a tight clearance
is the fact that the KIDD bolt (wide or narrow) are of high quality,
within tight tolerances, with straight surfaces,
parallel faces, and a fine surface finish.

All the other aftermarket bolts will fit in between
the clearances described above:
the Kid newer bolt (narrower), the Volquartsen CNC bolt, etc.



If I had to match a bolt to a receiver
for my own personal use, while aiming
for a long lifespan of the gun AND for potential accuracy,
I would go with clearances anywhere from
.008” to .025” and I wouldn't worry a bit.
The possible problems what I would worry about are:
the condition of the bolt surfaces (I would
prepare the bolt like I described earlier in this thread), and
cleaning and lubing of the action (as well as barrel).


So, if the user (owner) does his part,
meaning cleaning and lubing,
if the bolt surfaces are very flat,
with no nicks, with slightly chamfered corners,
the bolt and receiver will have a happy marriage.
Both Kidd wider and narrower bolts will work
without any problems.

However, especially in conditions of a tight clearance,
if you don't clean/lube, the gun can become
sensitive to the fouling build-up and lack of lube in the action,
and to the ammo used
(and also, even if I don't have direct data, I suspect
outside temperature may play a factor).
 
Last edited:
For test purposes, on some experimental receivers,
the side play (clearance) between bolt/receiver
was gradually reduced down to about .004”.
Even when the vertical clearance was kept under control,
after few hundred rnds or so,
there were some scrapes (scratches)
on the inside of the receiver, the finish was worn off
in some preferential spots, etc.
Major cycling problems were encountered with
a lot of ammo brands, or
when action was cold, or
with short barrels (16” or less).




As I said, I have tried to touch only some basic aspects
of the side-to-side clearance of the bolt, namely
the play between the bolt and the inside of the
vertical walls of the receiver.
There are some other things that will determine
and influence the side-to-side play between bolt/receiver,
but I am not going to go any farther on this subject.

An expected thing is the fact
that the side-to-side clearance goes hand in hand
with the vertical (up-and -down) clearance.
If the side-to-side clearance is very small (tight),
the action will become very sensitive
to the vertical (up and down) clearance
between the bolt and receiver
(in other words, a poor vertical fit between bolt/receiver
will enhance the effects of a TIGHT side clearance).

I will not discuss here the aspects of vertical clearance
between the bolt, receiver and the other action parts,
as it would probably require many pages of explanations.

Even with explanations regarding only the side-to-side clearance,
I hope you have a more complete picture now.

But anyway, Kaiser Sose, in case you have read
my later posts so far and you are still interested
in the vertical clearance issue, what determines it,
what the pitfalls are, when it starts to become critical,
and mostly how EXACTLY it interconnects with
the side-to-side clearance, please feel free
to search the internet.
 
Last edited:
LONGITUDINAL FIT IN DLASK RECEIVERS

When you will try to drop the bolt in the Dlask receiver,
you will notice how tight it is because of the length
of the receiver rail (shelf) from under the ejection port.
You guys will have to learn to put it in and take it out
quick and easy. There is no primer course for that.
Please read member Colin's post in this thread and see at
what extent he went (he pushed the firing pin forward
through the cleaning hole).
You will have to take your time to learn by yourself
how to move the bolt in order to take it out
and put it back in because you will have to do that
everytime you clean the barrel.


Do not force the bolt in or out.
Do not bang it in and do not pry it out.


Whatever you do, resist the temptation to grind/file
the receiver shelf.
If you do that, you will destroy the receiver.

If you did everything possible and you still can't figure it out,
I suggest you send the receiver
and the bolt (even the trigger group and barrel)
back to Dlask. He will fit everything and make sure
the bolt gets in and out.
If the bolt is one of the few that are too long
at the step behind the extractor, then Dlask will
machine the bolt in the right spot so it fits.
However, there are VERY few bolts that are too long
and will truly require that kind of machining.
Better yet, when you order the receiver,
send the bolt, TG, barrel, v-block, whatever you have
to Dlask and they will fit it in your new receiver for free.


The reason I say you should not file/grind the shelf of the
receiver is this: if the shelf is too short, then,
when the bolt is in the rearmost position
(against the recoil pin),
the bolt will fall from the shelf and
it will not return in the forward home (battery) position,
since it will remain hooked in the end of the shelf.
There is absolutely no way to reasonably repair
a receiver if you grind/file the shelf.



There are also some bolts that are too SHORT from factory
and they will fall from the shelf (I have seen only 2 of such bolts
but the point is that they exist).
If that is your case,
most probably you will have to change the bolt, BUT
send the bolt and the receiver back to Dlask just in case.
 
Last edited:
DOOK said:
That was sooo f**king booring...
...MOAR!
Click to expand...

I do believe he said to skip if you found it so ... lol.

I on the other hand found that very informative. And think that maybe those (posts 243-248) should be stuck up into the stickies so that it's easy to find.
 
Fascinating posts Doc, as always.

I believe what people should take from your posts is that DLASK designed the hell out of those receivers. It's quite an achievement for a Canadian company in my opinion and requires an extremely thorough understanding of the minutia of issues that could affect the platform for which it was designed.

It sucks that you had to stay up to 2:00am to write about it though.
 
Last edited:
Dr.Lector said:
LONGITUDINAL FIT IN DLASK RECEIVERS

When you will try to drop the bolt in the Dlask receiver,
you will notice how tight it is because of the length
of the receiver rail (shelf) from under the ejection port.
You guys will have to learn to put it in and take it out
quick and easy. There is no primer course for that.
Please read member Colin's post in this thread and see at
what extent he went (he pushed the firing pin forward
through the cleaning hole).
You will have to take your time to learn by yourself
how to move the bolt in order to take it out
and put it back in because you will have to do that
everytime you clean the barrel.


Do not force the bolt in or out.
Do not bang it in and do not pry it out.


Whatever you do, resist the temptation to grind/file
the receiver shelf.
If you do that, you will destroy the receiver.

If you did everything possible and you still can't figure it out,
I suggest you send the receiver
and the bolt (even the trigger group and barrel)
back to Dlask. He will fit everything and make sure
the bolt gets in and out.
If the bolt is one of the few that are too long
at the step behind the extractor, then Dlask will
machine the bolt in the right spot so it fits.
However, there are VERY few bolts that are too long
and will truly require that kind of machining.
Better yet, when you order the receiver,
send the bolt, TG, barrel, v-block, whatever you have
to Dlask and they will fit it in your new receiver for free.


The reason I say you should not file/grind the shelf of the
receiver is this: if the shelf is too short, then,
when the bolt is in the rearmost position
(against the recoil pin),
the bolt will fall from the shelf and
it will not return in the forward home (battery) position,
since it will remain hooked in the end of the shelf.
There is absolutely no way to reasonably repair
a receiver if you grind/file the shelf.



There are also some bolts that are too SHORT from factory
and they will fall from the shelf (I have seen only 2 of such bolts
but the point is that they exist).
If that is your case,
most probably you will have to change the bolt, BUT
send the bolt and the receiver back to Dlask just in case.
Click to expand...

All great info but you never answered my question.
 
carsmovies said:
All great info but you never answered my question.
Click to expand...

What exactly was your question? These ones ... ?

carsmovies said:
1. How do you know it was my particular barrel and receiver? I did get it already. I got in a VQ v-block but the VQ trigger kit and bolt are on backorder. 2. Where do I get the pin set for the trigger housing and the v-block set screws from?
Click to expand...

1. Dr Lector watches Dlask's secret workshop from a peep hole in the wall.
2. You can get the pins off the EE, place a want add. Or you can check out some of the sponsors on rimfirecentral.com and order yourself some.

Some good places are ...

h ttp://www.rimfiresports.com/
h ttp://www.rimfiretechnologies.com/
h ttp://www.joeboboutfitters.com/ << Lots of OEM parts here.
 
Thanks JT. I ordered the VQ trigger group from rimfiresports but didn't see the pin sets on their site. I did send them an email asking about them though but haven't heard back yet. I checked all those places you mentioned and none seem to have the pin sets shown.
 
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Lector, I knew you would finally respond... and I also knew you would say only half the story;)
Dr.Lector said:
HOW THE BOLT WORKS (SIDE-TO-SIDE)
....
There is also some rotation of the bolt in 2 vertical planes,
but I will not dissect that aspect in here......
Click to expand...
Dr.Lector said:
I will not discuss here the aspects of vertical clearance
between the bolt, receiver and the other action parts,
as it would probably require many pages of explanations.
Click to expand...



Even that “half” is not complete.
Dr.Lector said:
There are some other things that will determine
and influence the side-to-side play between bolt/receiver,
but I am not going to go any farther on this subject.
Click to expand...
I wonder how much is missing from this story of horizontal clearance.



Dr.Lector said:
But anyway, Kaiser Sose, in case you have read
my later posts so far and you are still interested..............
please feel free
to search the internet.
Click to expand...
I did. Couldn't find much. That is why I asked you.
The rimfirecentral gives little bits and pieces of info here and there, but your posts here give a much more comprehensive picture.

For all the explanations and your trouble to write all that, I have to say thank you. It was a very interesting read.
I am sure you are very proud of your receiver and all your work.
 
Excellent posts Dr lector I have to admit that I had to work to resist the urge to grind the shelf and bang on the receiver, had to go and have a beer to relax before continuing!

Besides filing down a portion of the bolt, I also polished the hell out of my Ruger bolt, partly for cosmetic reason, but also for fit and yes I still have to depress the firing pin to get the required clearance to put the bolt in and out.
 
I got my second Dlask frame today and this is what it looks like as of now. installed KID scaloped bolt, KID charging handle with 10% lighter spring kit.
KID recoil buffer, Power Custom Hammer & Sear Pack 2.5lb pull, Ruger 10/22 clear mag, Butler creek extended mag release.
with Xmas around the corner I have to wait on the barrel. Still looking for a better mag release.

Dlask10-22.jpg
 
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