1911 tests - enough to make TDC's head explode.

[Westicle]

Very pretty. So, your answer is?

if life where a pipe dream I would pick a glock.... probably the G34..... with extended controls and +2 floorplates on the mags....

if not as I have said, I would be happy with a ruger, sig, kahr, beretta and so on... I have shoot all of them and am comfortable with their controls and would have no problem manipulating them.

sure I shoot a glock pretty good.... but that does not mean I close my mind to learning other firearms, after all you never know when your going to have to use your attackers gun on him same as most cops get shot with their own gun.

 

[TDC]

yup, nothing is ever good enough....

Not good enough to be considered simple and reliable. You know, the important criteria for a defensive firearm. Its called logic, when applied it makes gear selection rather simple. Unfortunately, logic directly interferes with "tacticool" accessories.

TDC

 

[Westicle]

If the grip of the G26 is too small why not run a G19? The finger extension duplicates the same grip size of a G19. We're back to hobby shooting. Hobby or not, the fundamentals of marksmanship still apply. Slip on grips and finger tab base plates fail to solve a problem that cannot be solved by logical gear selection or proper training.

I know a guy who's 6'10" 350 lbs who can pick up an NBA regulation ball with one hand, and he shoots a G19.

TDC

who gives a #### about you or your friend, my firearms my choices for my needs....

plain and simple and it seems to besomething you have a tough time grasping, you spout off time and time again about something because it works for you, well whoop dee do....

I am not you, and your buddy is not me. so stop pretending you know what is best for everybody.... that seems to be the whole problem everyone has with you.

HELLO we are in canada, gun ownership is a hobby.... same as airsoft and paintball except for those people employed in the defense of this country or the protection of us civilians or our valuables... you can take all the training you want, that is your hobby, plain and simple.

bed time for me, but first I am going to the washroom and make a little TDC and then flush him, I will check back in 20 minutes to see what wisdom you have posted after of course I wave bye bye to your twin swirling down the drain.

 

[TDC]

who gives a f**k about you or your friend, my firearms my choices for my needs....

plain and simple and it seems to besomething you have a tough time grasping, you spout off time and time again about something because it works for you, well whoop dee do....

I am not you, and your buddy is not me. so stop pretending you know what is best for everybody.... that seems to be the whole problem everyone has with you.

HELLO we are in canada, gun ownership is a hobby.... same as airsoft and paintball except for those people employed in the defense of this country or the protection of us civilians or our valuables... you can take all the training you want, that is your hobby, plain and simple.

bed time for me, but first I am going to the washroom and make a little TDC and then flush him, I will check back in 20 minutes to see what wisdom you have posted after of course I wave bye bye to your twin swirling down the drain.

You're right, your gear is for you and your needs. Unfortunately your reasons behind what you choose are not based on marksmanship principles or effective tactics. My large friend was an example of someone who also manages to effectively operate a small pistol with large hands. It can be done, but it may not be for you, fair enough.

The bold text in your post is a failing mindset which seems to be justification for not pursuing practical training. Without the proper mindset, discussing tactics, skill and gear is a lost cause. Carry on with your recreational shooting.

TDC

 

[Westicle]

you know if it was not against board rules I would call you an idiot, but it is against them so I will refrain.

not based on marksmenship principles.... HELLO, have you seen the olympic shooters whose gun grips are custom molded to thier hands.... are you saying they are not marksmen/women ?? the mold the grips so the bore more naturally lines up with thier shooting style... are you saying they do this just because ?? or do you thnk they do it because every shooter has a different style ?

making a gun fit the user is what it is all about, why make shooting uncomfortable... do you shoot with gloves on ?? cause I know you do..... that is so tactically unsound, by wearing gloves your changing your grip on the pistol. blah blah blah.....

again, you will never be happy and just live to criticize other people.... why do people put magpull miads or ctrs on their AR15's..... why do people put different grips on the 1911's..... why does vickers like the 50/50 grip panels with smooth on top and checkered on the bottom. why do some people prefer an arched mainspring housing over a flat....

I could go on all night..... you run what works for you, unfortunatly your a little 5'4" tall chubby kid so what might work for you will not work for others.... I am a 6'4" fat bastard, what works for me will not work for you.

Edited to Add: your brother screamed your name as he was spinning out of sight

 

[TDC]

you know if it was not against board rules I would call you an idiot, but it is against them so I will refrain.

not based on marksmenship principles.... HELLO, have you seen the olympic shooters whose gun grips are custom molded to thier hands.... are you saying they are not marksmen/women ?? the mold the grips so the bore more naturally lines up with thier shooting style... are you saying they do this just because ?? or do you thnk they do it because every shooter has a different style ?

making a gun fit the user is what it is all about, why make shooting uncomfortable... do you shoot with gloves on ?? cause I know you do..... that is so tactically unsound, by wearing gloves your changing your grip on the pistol. blah blah blah.....

again, you will never be happy and just live to criticize other people.... why do people put magpull miads or ctrs on their AR15's..... why do people put different grips on the 1911's..... why does vickers like the 50/50 grip panels with smooth on top and checkered on the bottom. why do some people prefer an arched mainspring housing over a flat....

I could go on all night..... you run what works for you, unfortunatly your a little 5'4" tall chubby kid so what might work for you will not work for others.... I am a 6'4" fat bastard, what works for me will not work for you.

Edited to Add: your brother screamed your name as he was spinning out of sight

Olympic shooting is driven by extreme accuracy. Duty guns are not capable of such performance and not designed for such work. The A-zone on an IPSC target is approx 9"x5". The ability to put round after round through the same hole is not required even for gaming.

I run MIAD grips for the storage capability and to eliminate the poorly located finger tab that the stock grip has. The factory grip is still functional and an aftermarket one is not required on a rifle no more than it is required on a pistol. Comfort is always nice, but don't pretend like comfort is important when discussing marksmanship, its not. Slip on grips, aftermarket grips, grip reductions, stippling or any other grip modification does not improve ones skills.

TDC

 

[Westicle]

 

[mudgunner49]

Sounds like a poor design given the evolution of ammunition.

TDC

That's kind of an ignorant statement considering that when the 1911 was designed ther was no JHP and in fact gilding metal jackets had just very recently come into use for handguns. Up until that point it was all lead...


blake

 

[Canuck44]

Comfort is always nice, but don't pretend like comfort is important when discussing marksmanship, its not. Slip on grips, aftermarket grips, grip reductions, stippling or any other grip modification does not improve ones skills.

TDC

You got to be kidding! I don't know who told you this or where you read it but your premise is seriously flawed. A poorly fitting handgun is no different than a poorly fitted rifle or shotgun. The ability for the shooter to maximize his skills with either is seriously compromized if the firearm does not fit the shooter.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Savage]

Accuracy is a function of the shooter, not the gear.

TDC

Very true skills cannot be substituted by gear

Ya right. Try shooting a bench rest rifle against an off the shelf LE and come and tell me about the gear not mattering.


Take Care

Bob

LMAO
If you lack the proper skills then throwing lots of dollars at buying gear will do nothing because it is a poor craftsman that blames his tools for his poor performance.



Be the Tool Master not the Master Tool

 

[Canuck44]

Very true skills cannot be substituted by gear


LMAO
If you lack the proper skills then throwing lots of dollars at buying gear will do nothing because it is a poor craftsman that blames his tools for his poor performance.



Be the Tool Master not the Master Tool

Some tools are better designed for tasks than others. I don't care how great your skills are try outshooting a bench rest rifle at 200 yards with an SKS rifle. Your anaolgy is weak. Try shooting trap at 28 yards with an 18" barreled shotgun with an open choke. Different uses dictate the type of gear you look for when purchasing firearms just like any other endeavor.

We all have different reasons for owning guns and shooting them. All TDC's comments may or may not be valid IF you limit yourself to tactical handgun shooting. For many this is too self limiting. To suggest a shooter with a decked out Tanfoglio with a 3 lb trigger pull won't shoot better than he would with the same model of gun only in the base model with a 12# trigger pull defies logic and reality. Of course thousands of IPSC shooters could be wrong and TDC could be right.

Skill sets, some of which go beyond firing the weapon, required in tactical shooting may have little if any requirement in other shooting endeavors. This seems to be lost in TDC's absolutes.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Frozen Snake]

As the old saying goes "fear the one gun man."

 

[TDC]

Some tools are better designed for tasks than others. I don't care how great your skills are try outshooting a bench rest rifle at 200 yards with an SKS rifle. Your anaolgy is weak. Try shooting trap at 28 yards with an 18" barreled shotgun with an open choke. Different uses dictate the type of gear you look for when purchasing firearms just like any other endeavor.

We all have different reasons for owning guns and shooting them. All TDC's comments may or may not be valid IF you limit yourself to tactical handgun shooting. For many this is too self limiting. To suggest a shooter with a decked out Tanfoglio with a 3 lb trigger pull won't shoot better than he would with the same model of gun only in the base model with a 12# trigger pull defies logic and reality. Of course thousands of IPSC shooters could be wrong and TDC could be right.

Skill sets, some of which go beyond firing the weapon, required in tactical shooting may have little if any requirement in other shooting endeavors. This seems to be lost in TDC's absolutes.

Take Care

Bob

You're right, an SKS will be no match for a benchrest shooter and his gear. Then again, the SKS is completely inappropriate for the task at hand. Same goes for the Tanfoglio. Its purpose built for competing, not personal defense. I would expect a tricked out race gun to dominate a stock service pistol at the range. What you've used for comparison has nothing to do with the "fit" of the firearm to the shooter. Your comparisons reflect how well the firearm "fits" the role. Completely different angles.

Check my previous post with the 11 year old girl running a G19. Check my past post about a large friend of mine running the same gun. I guess fit isn't overly important. I do agree that fit is far more important with rifles and shotguns. Most pistols have similar circumferences when measured and are a non issue for probably 95% or shooters. Shotgun and rifle stocks are too long for most shooters if they were to shoot with a more square stance as is desired for dynamic shooting and moving. If you shoot trap and skeet, it doesn't much matter, although I'm sure a better fitting shotgun would help. Same goes for rifles, there's a reason the vast majority of service rifles are equipped with adjustable stocks and it isn't for storage purposes.

TDC

 

[Mike Oxlong]

The battlefield has changed, and mounted infantry no longer employs horses.

TDC

Actually, cavalry and mounted infantry are two different things. Different employment and different tactics.

 

[TDC]

Actually, cavalry and mounted infantry are two different things. Different employment and different tactics.

Thanks for clearing that up.

TDC

 

[Canuck44]

Check my previous post with the 11 year old girl running a G19.

TDC

I saw the video. Just goes to show you a 11 year old girl can walk around a stage and pull a trigger of a gun. Other than that I am not sure what your point was.

Most of us aren't interested in just being able to pull a trigger on a gun. Proper fit helps...big time. My preference is for a long trigger on my 1911's due to my hand size. Others with shorter fingers or smaller hands would benefit from a short trigger on their 1911's. In the 20's the US Gov't changed the backstrap on the 1911's. Why? Because some but not all shooters found the gun tended to shoot low in their hands. You will agree this has something to do with ability to hit the target.

I assume from your reply you agree gear can have an effect on ones shooting ability be it handgun, rifle or shotgun. At least we have crossed that river. Unless of course you think you can shoot a handgun with a 12# trigger pull as well as with thesame gun with a 3# trigger pull.

Take Care

Bob
ps I wasn't referring to a tricked out race gun. I was referring to a Tanfoglio Stock11 vs MOdel "L". Aside from finish the two guns are identical externally. You might want to check out the Tanfoglio web site. Their guns are also made for self defense, LEO's and the military.

 

[Savage]

Some tools are better designed for tasks than others. I don't care how great your skills are try out shooting a bench rest rifle at 200 yards with an SKS rifle.

I know of several individuals that regularly out shoot many self proclaimed experts in this sport with nothing more than a well used hunting rifle .I can see no reason that an SKS cannot compete if the Shooter posses the skill and the mindset he can compete

Your analogy is weak.

No my analogy is based on fact were as yours is flawed you are in essence saying the gear dictates the shooters skill level

Try shooting trap at 28 yards with an 18" barreled shotgun with an open choke.

Been there done that surprisingly the other shooters at the DWinton skeet range were rather surprised that a Ithaca M37 DSPS 20" IC shotgun with rifle sights could do so well that was 20 yrs ago but at the time I shot 200-500 rnds a month out of my shotgun at various targets including trap & skeet

Different uses dictate the type of gear you look for when purchasing firearms just like any other endeavor.

Well no single Firearm may perform exceptional well in all endeavours .They will get the job done albeit not pretty. I have witnessed people shooting skeet with a 22 Rim fire rifle and hit there targets . I have seen fellow hand gunners go from drawing there pistol and engage 3 steel reactive targets hitting each target with a single round @ 50m,75m and 100m most were able to hit all 3 targets including my self. It is not magic it is SKILL you cannot substitute Skill with Gear it wont maker you a better competitor except in your own mind.If you lack the proper skill to shoot, walk, ride a bike , drive a motor vehicle or what ever else it is you are not going anywhere you will all ways be handicapped by your lack of skills.You must realize that Gear is a crutch that many us including myself use for not notching up our performance because our lack of training witch directly translates to SKILL

All TDC's comments may or may not be valid IF you limit yourself to tactical handgun shooting.

So what you are saying is that all other sports don't require participant to have any skills Is this Right?

To suggest a shooter with a decked out Tanfoglio with a 3 lb trigger pull won't shoot better than he would with the same model of gun only in the base model with a 12# trigger pull defies logic and reality. Of course thousands of IPSC shooters could be wrong and TDC could be right.

Skill sets, some of which go beyond firing the weapon, required in tactical shooting may have little if any requirement in other shooting endeavors. This seems to be lost in TDC's absolutes.

Take Care

Bob

I think you are mistaken I have competed in IPSC and other shooting sports for over 35 yrs I have seen competitors in IPSC get there asses handed to them by some one using a bone stock pistol and IWB holster against there tricked out compensated pistols with the latest Ernie Hill speed leather .What separated them one knew he had the skills to master his sport the others had moderate skills but thought they could buy there missing skills with better gear!!!!!!!!

 

[Jim S]

WOW, I just spent my entire lunch break reading this thread.
Conclusions: 1) TDC is indeed knowledgeable, if EXTREMELY
biased, at least in his own mind.
2) BELTFED presents facts.
3) WESTICLE is somewhat protective of IDPA.
4) YYYYY must be TDC's BFF, as my kids say

But, the most important thing I can take from this thread, is that the meat and potatoes of this discussion is OPINION.

Other then BELTFED providing FACTS, the rest of this thread is conjecture, at best.

My advice, (That and $1:75 will get you a cup of coffee at Timmie's) Fire as many handguns as you can, until you find one that is comfortable for WHATEVER your intended purpose is, and buy it, and shoot it a lot.

And PLEASE, take all this "defensive S**T with a HUGE grain of sand.

And that folks, is my 2 cents worth

 

[Canuck44]

No my analogy is based on fact were as yours is flawed you are in essence saying the gear dictates the shooters skill level

Nope never said that ever. What I did say is gear will effect performance. Your skill level is measured by your performance.

Been there done that surprisingly the other shooters at the DWinton skeet range were rather surprised that a Ithaca M37 DSPS 20" IC shotgun with rifle sights could do so well that was 20 yrs ago but at the time I shot 200-500 rnds a month out of my shotgun at various targets including trap & skeet

The question is with your skill level how much better would you have scored with better equipment. You can't argue that your Ithaca - as great a gun as it is did limit your ability to maximize yuor obvious skill level. The top shooters in trap spend their money on custom fitted guns for more reasons then ego.

Well no single Firearm may perform exceptional well in all endeavours .They will get the job done albeit not pretty. I have witnessed people shooting skeet with a 22 Rim fire rifle and hit there targets . I have seen fellow hand gunners go from drawing there pistol and engage 3 steel reactive targets hitting each target with a single round @ 50m,75m and 100m most were able to hit all 3 targets including my self. It is not magic it is SKILL you cannot substitute

Not sure what your point is here.

Skill with Gear it wont maker you a better competitor except in your own mind.If you lack the proper skill to shoot, walk, ride a bike , drive a motor vehicle or what ever else it is you are not going anywhere you will all ways be handicapped by your lack of skills.You must realize that Gear is a crutch that many us including myself use for not notching up our performance because our lack of training witch directly translates to SKILL

Of course. That is where ego comes in.

So what you are saying is that all other sports don't require participant to have any skills Is this Right?

Nope, never said that either.What I said was even the most skillful will be limited to some extent by the quality of their gear. A loosely fitted 1911 in the hands of the most skillful shooter is only capable of a certain degree of accuracy. This can be demonstrated by the use of a ranson rest and has been.

I think you are mistaken I have competed in IPSC and other shooting sports for over 35 yrs I have seen competitors in IPSC get there asses handed to them by some one using a bone stock pistol and IWB holster against there tricked out compensated pistols with the latest Ernie Hill speed leather .What separated them one knew he had the skills to master his sport the others had moderate skills but thought they could buy there missing skills with better gear!!!!!!!!

Of course you have. That isn't what TDC has been saying. He claims gear doesn't matter. I suggest to you the guy who handed the other his a$$ would have handed it to him with more vigor using more sophisticated equipment. There is a reason why shooters have trigger jobs done on their guns. It doesn't improve their skill level but it can improve their performance which is what is used as a measurement of skill. Unless of course you subscribe to the notion that one can finish 2nd yet still have more skill than he who finished first. In TDC's tactical world that would be a pyric (sp) victory indeed.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Westicle]

and the brain cell's slowly die everytime i see tdc post......