2015 - My Black Rifle shoots sub-MOA groups all day long challenge! Revised Rules!

Ravage said:
a "Black Rifle" is not something realistically equipped with a 3 foot long 25x super sniper scope so optics should be limited to something you would actually use realistically on your black rifle or I call shenanigans :) I have a 5x AR-536 scope on my Tavor so 100 yards is a pretty small target even at 5x so the person with the biggest super scope to zoom in will shoot something unrealistic.
One reason black rifles are not super accurate is because of the optics normally put on them lets you hit something a couple hundred yards out but not being high powered scopes it limits their accuracy overall.
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Shenanigans really you think Black Rifles aren't super accurate because they all have poor optics on them? Someone who chooses to set-up his or her Black Rifle in such a way as to enable themselves to shoot very well should not be penalized for it.

You do know that there are a whole lot of long range hunters that run their NR Black Rifles way out past a few hundred meters when required and please don't forget all those Long Range shooters who run their Restricted AR's and NR Black Rifles out to 500Metres, 1000Metres and beyond using optics with as little as 4x (even open sights) with many using much, much more...

I don't get how shooting MOA groups or better with decent optics as something unrealistic on the contrary if you aren't making excellent groups then perhaps an optic upgrade should be in your future, because who likes shooting poorly all over the target.

Cheers D
 
Zeroed-In said:
Shenanigans really you think Black Rifles aren't super accurate because they all have poor optics on them? Someone who chooses to set-up his or her Black Rifle in such a way as to enable themselves to shoot very well should not be penalized for it.

You do know that there are a whole lot of long range hunters that run their NR Black Rifles way out past a few hundred meters when required and please don't forget all those Long Range shooters who run their Restricted AR's and NR Black Rifles out to 500Metres, 1000Metres and beyond using optics with as little as 4x (even open sights) with many using much, much more...

I don't get how shooting MOA groups or better with decent optics as something unrealistic on the contrary if you aren't making excellent groups then perhaps an optic upgrade should be in your future, because who likes shooting poorly all over the target.

Cheers D
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I know black rifles can be accurate what I meant was that its unrealistic to see a 15" long high powered optic on a rifle that comes in less then 30" long like my Tavor let alone the shorter restricted black rifles. Hitting gongs out to 500m or further is one thing using sights you would traditionally find on black rifles is one thing but shooting consistent sub moa groups on paper at 100m using a 3x or 5x or red dot or open sights is quite another. Show me pics of people who run their AR with a 10" barrel using a large long range scope that is usually 15" long 18+" long with if you include the sunshade and I will call shenanigans on that. I wasn't saying that black rifles are inaccurate just that your not going to be using your normal optics to do it so that's where this challenge goes off course, A person shooting a black rifle with a 24x scope is gonna be more accurate no question but unless he always shoots his black rifle with that scope then it looses some of it challenge I think. Show me people who can shoot consistent sub moa groups using an ACOG or similar optic you normally find on a black rifle is all i'm saying.

Taking your black rifle putting on a Sniper scope mounting it to a lead sled and filling your mags with custom hand load ammo takes away the challenge make it with your normal optic using your normal ammo if this a challenge :)
 
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zupermann said:
There needs to be agreement on what measuring system. Center to center, or edge to edge minus bullet diameter? (the second method yields smaller groups btw). Or whatever other method out there....
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eh? Shouldn't they be the same if they were both measured accurately?
 
Ravage said:
I know black rifles can be accurate what I meant was that its unrealistic to see a 15" long high powered optic on a rifle that comes in less then 30" long like my Tavor let alone the shorter restricted black rifles. Hitting gongs out to 500m or further is one thing using sights you would traditionally find on black rifles is one thing but shooting consistent sub moa groups on paper at 100m using a 3x or 5x or red dot or open sights is quite another. Show me pics of people who run their AR with a 10" barrel using a large long range scope that is usually 15" long 18+" long with if you include the sunshade and I will call shenanigans on that. I wasn't saying that black rifles are inaccurate just that your not going to be using your normal optics to do it so that's where this challenge goes off course, A person shooting a black rifle with a 24x scope is gonna be more accurate no question but unless he always shoots his black rifle with that scope then it looses some of it challenge I think. Show me people who can shoot consistent sub moa groups using an ACOG or similar optic you normally find on a black rifle is all i'm saying.

Taking your black rifle putting on a Sniper scope mounting it to a lead sled and filling your mags with custom hand load ammo takes away the challenge make it with your normal optic using your normal ammo if this a challenge :)
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I'm not sure why you think something like an ACOG puts the shooter at a disadvantage. When I first got my XCR I was shooting 2-3" groups with garbage ammo with irons, still doing similar groups with the same ammo now with magnification, the optic certainly didn't create magic where none could be found. The reticles on high quality optics such as ACOG's, Elcan's or 1-X's are more than capable of some very precise shooting.

Not all black rifles are the same either. A 11" barrel AR is a different beast than a 20" one, just as a Tavor which is meant to be shot in every position other than bench rest or supported is different than a bipod friendlly AR. To be blunt, you put yourself at a distadvantage buying a Tavor, this isn't what the rifle is meant for and that's ok. If however you do awkwardly mount a bipod to it and get some rear support under it I'm sure it's a contender to make some reasonable groupings.
 
I'll give this a go once it warms up a bit more here.
My old LMT mws with the 20" ss barrel was certainly capable.
I'm going to try it with a dpms g2 recon, of all things, lol.
 
mustang979 said:
eh? Shouldn't they be the same if they were both measured accurately?
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Yes, you would think so, but I remember measuring (for example) edge (dark/burned paper area) to edge on a .224 hole, and it wasn't .224". (Was actually approx .18" --because the bullet pushes through the paper rather than vapourizing it all). So edge to edge groups are a bit smaller than center to center, esp. when subtracting the .224 bullet diameter (which IMHO makes the distortion worse--and groups better:)
YMMV.
 
Taking your black rifle putting on a Sniper scope mounting it to a lead sled and filling your mags with custom hand load ammo takes away the challenge make it with your normal optic using your normal ammo if this a challenge
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You do understand 99% of the people your going to see listed in post #1 of this challenge will be winning with the same gun/ammo/optic they compete with all summer long? .... We could make a 2MOA challenge to satisfy the Tavor/T97/XCR/VZ guys if that would make em feel better?



Don't mind me, just stirring the pot :)
 
Quite a bit of discussion going on about needing high power optics. Even a 3X will do you just fine at 100 yards as long as it has a small enough aiming point that does not completely obscure your 1" target. I made it out to SR practice the other week with no optic, running iron sights and we shot back to 500yds no problem. At 300yds I was getting plenty of V-bulls.
 
zupermann said:
Yes, you would think so, but I remember measuring (for example) edge (dark/burned paper area) to edge on a .224 hole, and it wasn't .224". (Was actually approx .18" --because the bullet pushes through the paper rather than vapourizing it all). So edge to edge groups are a bit smaller than center to center, esp. when subtracting the .224 bullet diameter (which IMHO makes the distortion worse--and groups better:)
YMMV.
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I just measured some of the holes I punched in paper yesterday using my 700 (.308), the burn marks are all .30 (or what I would expect them to be), not smaller like you have seen
 
All you guys going on about scopes and ammo, the thread is about wringing the most out of your rifle and you. Yes you will have trouble using a 5 MOA dot. Yes 4X magnification will be difficult. As for ammo not too many rifles are going to reliably perform with ammo from a box you grabbed off the shelf. Those 3/4 and 1/2 MOA groups you see from a bolt gun are pretty much all done with handloads. If you don't have the gear a bunch of Lee stuff will get you in the game...I'd suggest an RCBS or Lyman balance though if you want to save money and have accurate charges.

It's a shame I still don't have my M&P 15, I'd put money on it that it would make the cut...In fact I'm going to talk the new owner into having a go. He's a better shot than me anyway.


Enough bellyaching!!! Lets get to it!
 
redshooter said:
All you guys going on about scopes and ammo, the thread is about wringing the most out of your rifle and you. Yes you will have trouble using a 5 MOA dot. Yes 4X magnification will be difficult. As for ammo not too many rifles are going to reliably perform with ammo from a box you grabbed off the shelf. Those 3/4 and 1/2 MOA groups you see from a bolt gun are pretty much all done with handloads. If you don't have the gear a bunch of Lee stuff will get you in the game...I'd suggest an RCBS or Lyman balance though if you want to save money and have accurate charges.

It's a shame I still don't have my M&P 15, I'd put money on it that it would make the cut...In fact I'm going to talk the new owner into having a go. He's a better shot than me anyway.


Enough bellyaching!!! Lets get to it!
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Amen! Now lets start seeing some entries. :)
 
Trinimon said:
Amen! Now lets start seeing some entries.
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I went to the range today with my Norinco . . . I didn't make it. :(

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