That is interesting.
.308, 00 buck, or slug for grizzly?!
- Thread starter DiSmAnTLeR
- Start date
That is interesting.
Who said I do? Sealhunter? You?
Why does that bother you so much?
Derailing this thread? Now that's funny.
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
4- 1 oz slugs followed by 4- 00 buck. I figure I'm covered.
I'm trying to picture how this might play out. The first shot you make, with a slug, is at close range, but the bear escapes wounded into heavy cover. Now, you go into that heavy cover after the bear, and fire 3 more slugs, but have yet to kill the bear. All that is left in your magazine now is buckshot, but the bear leaves the heavy cover and makes a break for it across open ground. And as the range increases rapidly, you're shooting buckshot?
I don't much like buckshot, and believe firmly that its use in bear defense is very specialized, but there is no doubt people will continue to use it. The question I have though is to what advantage is buckshot over a slug in the minds of those who make that choice? If the bear is close enough to touch you, you must place buckshot on the target as accurately as you would a slug because the pattern hasn't opened very much. The slug will almost surely penetrate deeper. It is unlikely that the pellets will break a large bone, although they would certainly bust his head open if fired within 10 yards, but so will the slug. If you require a follow up shot beyond 30', buckshot will not produce as severe a wound as a slug and past 25 yards you won't keep all the pellets on target.
So if you champion the use of buckshot please explain the logic, I might learn something I've over looked.
CatfishSteve
CGN Regular
- Location
- in front of computer
Well lets say instead of chasing a wounded bear into heavy cover (bad idea) we're talking bear defence here not hunting right?
he decides to charge you. when he gets close say 2 or 3 yards you let him have it either in the skull or neck wichever presents itself. Now i'd rather 15 60gr 00 pellets at 1450fps each developing 280 ft-lbs (win supreme) for a total of 4200 ft-lbs of energy localised in a small area as opposed to (correct me if i'm wrong) 2120 ft-lbs for a 1oz slug at 1450fps. and my reasoning is i'm going to have more chance of caving in his/her skull with the buck also if its a neck shot I'm going to have a greater likelyhood of severing that spinal cord with a pattern of buck 1 to 2 inches big as opposed to a slug a little over half an inch big
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I don't think you can add all the pellets up to make an overall energy rating. I think your trying to kill a bear with 280ft pounds of energy, becase putting them all in the same area does not allow them to help eachother penetrate, velocity and mass is what makes something penetrate. Why would you want to try and take your chances "caving in the skull" with buckshot, when with the exact same POI of a slug you can drill a hole right through the bears skull and brain matter RELIABLY, and keep your options open for extended range/shoulder shots? If a shotgun is the tool you choose, a good brenneke slug is the way to go.
Me, ill take my 20'' .375 Holland...because its more effective than a slug at 10feet, and a hell of alot more effective than a slug at 300 yards, in a compact package with more durable ammunition and a more rugged manual action. To each his own!
Doesnt 12 guage OO buck only have 9 pellets?
Me, ill take my 20'' .375 Holland...because its more effective than a slug at 10feet, and a hell of alot more effective than a slug at 300 yards, in a compact package with more durable ammunition and a more rugged manual action. To each his own!
Doesnt 12 guage OO buck only have 9 pellets?
Interesting math....
CatfishSteve
CGN Regular
- Location
- in front of computer
when they place 15 charges at the base of a building to demolish it do you only count the destructive force of 1 charge?
winchester supreme 00 3" buck has 15 pellets
Quite a few Black Bears on Vancouver Island have been ethically hunted (ie clean quick kill) with this very combo, so for self defense I would say it can do the job if you do your part.
Personally I'm more confidant with my SKS then my 30/30, so my SKS is the one I bring for hikes in the woods, bear defense and brush hunting...with soft point ammo of course.
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They count the force of each destructive charge placed in a very specific location on structural members.
Are you saying you can accuratly place each pellet from your shotgun in a specific target, sucessfully bringing down the bear?
One pellet for the carotid, one pellet for the jugular....gimmie a break.
CatfishSteve
CGN Regular
- Location
- in front of computer
They count the force of each destructive charge placed in a very specific location on structural members.
Are you saying you can accuratly place each pellet from your shotgun in a specific target, sucessfully bringing down the bear?
One pellet for the carotid, one pellet for the jugular....gimmie a break.
Sure I got 15 red dots in a row
of course not but each pellet applies 280 ft-lbs. when they all hit within a given area the ft-lbs applied to that area is the total ft-lbs applied by each pellet
Except each pellet will only have the 280ft lbs of energy to penetrate fur, hide, muscle and bone.
Sure I got 15 red dots in a row
of course not but each pellet applies 280 ft-lbs. when they all hit within a given area the ft-lbs applied to that area is the total ft-lbs applied by each pellet
Thats some interesting math and physics!!
A 600lbs Grizzly charging at 25-30 mph will likely cause you serious damage even if you manage to kill it with one shot @ 2-3 yds.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
15 pellet 00 buck are 3" shells... if you are comparing those, then compare them to 3" Brenneke Magnums -- they have over 3000ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle and are 1 3/8oz (600 grains).
also, the 1450fps you quote is for the 3.5" 15 pellet magnum buckshot - the 3" is around 1250.
im no mathematician, but i dont think you can just add up all the ft-lbs of energy of each individual pellet of a shot shell to calculate overall ft-lbs of energy -- if it worked that way then birdshot would have greater energy than a slug, which i doubt is the case.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
If you are defending yourself against a bear that has already proven to be dangerous, of course you go into the willows after it, you have no choice unless you are guarding a group of people. You don't want him wandering around your camp after dark, so you have to make sure he is no longer a threat, particularly if you are on foot.
Now here's the problem, a target coming straight towards you is tricky, as the tendancy is to shoot where it was, not where is is. So you don't hit the head, you hit him in the hump. If you are shooting slugs, the penetration of the slug is sufficient to break the shoulder which prevents him from having use of his front legs, and dramatically slows his forward progress. That buys you time to cycle the action, and fire a fast follow up shot that kills him. If you are shooting buckshot, the bone won't break, but if you are lucky you'll turn him. In that case you are still faced with a wounded bear, somewhere close by, that you can no longer see in heavy cover.
Kenetic energy is a poor measure of killing power. If the total force of the shotgun pellets was 4000 ft lbs it would squash a bear's head like a tomato, but look how little damage was done to this leopard shot by Mark Sullivan with a load of 00 from his 12 ga autoloader. Now compare the small kitty head to the massiveness of a big bear's head like the guy in the second pic who was disturbed while feeding on a beluga whale. Bear heads are misleading because of they are so big, and the brain pan is only the width of the snout, extending from well behind the eyes back to the ears. A bear's head is often in side to side motion making the shot even more difficult. Buckshot might not even get to the brain if the shot is not centered.
Now compare the two diagrams of #4 Buck and the 1 oz foster slug. 00 is heavier than #4 Buck, but there are fewer pellets, and the pellets are larger so penetration is similar. Again notice no 00 pellets exited the kitty's head in the first pic. A foster slug is not the best penetrating slug in the world, but it trumps 00 by a third.
