90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

I was hoping you'd shoot the fly. Would have been awesome. Does mirage really have an illusory effect on elevation? Interesting... And yes, your groups vertical spread was quite small. Hopfully my Shilen will enable me to shoot groups like this.

What power scope do you run at 500m? Will I find my 15x 3200 to be too weak at that range?

What do you think of h335 for long range loads?
 
I definitely wasn't paying any attention to those flies. Would have been way too funny if I actually hit one. I was just trying not to pull that last shot and send it somewhere else.

Landing within 1/4" of shot 2 was a nice surprise.

"Oh Yes, I meant to do that" :rockOn::bsFlag:

Mirage can affect you POI in any direction it is moving. Simply an optical distortion which pushes your target in the direction of flow - think straw in water.

This is why some will say not to shoot in a boil - mirage going up. Others say, shoot in a boil cause you know you only have to account for elevation. For shot number 3, the mirage was just starting to move up and I overcorrected by holding a smidge too low. The bullet actually landed where I aimed so if I had not moved, it "could have" landed right inbetween the first and second shot.

Now that would have been a great group. Hitting one of those flies would have been silly fun...

Reading mirage and shooting for it properly is truly the pinnacle of LR precision shooting.

I have seen some shooters do it well and it is pure magic to watch. Scored for Tom F in Kamloops a few weeks back and he can see the mirage and knows how to shoot for it. Great stuff.

I had my SIII10-50X60 around 45X when I took those shots. 15X is definitely going to be light of magnification made worse by the thickness of the reticle. You can only aim as precisely as what you can see.

At 500m, I can aim on the scoring line of an ICFRA target which is approx 3/16" thick. Gives me a very high degree of resolution on target for fine aiming.

Is it necessary? Depends on the accuracy of your rifle and style of shooting. I prefer more info then less. I certainly wouldn't bother with this much mag if I was shooting rocks, gongs and varmints. In these instances, that much mag would be a hindrance

I used to compete with an Elite 4200 at 24X with a mildot reticle. Recticle covered about 1/2" at 300m but it worked well enough for me to put some plaques on the wall.

The Shilen match barrels shoot very well. The key is load tuning to maximise the needs of the barrel AND being able to shoot well enough to see the full potential of the pipe.

Of course, this applies to any brand of barrel.

The best tires in the world serve no purpose if the car and driver don't work so well.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
DAMMMMMM..!!! That's great shooting Jerry!!...I kinda wish you wuz my dad! ;) :p

Jerry...I finally got around to loadin and shooting the new test loads you recomended to me for my 8 twist Tikka/Varmint.... Those 80 A-maxes/Varget are awesome and then some! :rockOn:....it shoots the same tight group @ 100 yds as my Fav load 69 Scenars/AA2230....same amount of powder too.....24 gr.:D...it was a blustery day when I shot. Course it wasn't like that when I left and drove 1 1/2 hrs to the range:rolleyes::rolleyes:..I could here the firing point flags flappin and snapping !! Best group was a 4 shot into a .275 cloverleaf with the fith shot 1" out!!...:D Thankx for all your time, the Tips and advise. I really appreciate it!! You and the rest of the shooting fraternity on CGN are instrumental for us "old noobs" gettin started out in the LD game. ...I'll pm you a few pics when I get em in the downlo mode...ThankX again....Kevin
 
Chilliwack was very soggy but the 90's gave a decent showing. Came in 2nd overall for FTR. Conditions were not always pleasant and scores reflected it.

More testing and tweaking then off to Homestead for the WCFCC.

Jerry
 
Finally, got a moment to update on the Homestead/WCFCC event.

If you think you know how to read the wind, go shoot at Homestead. A truly humbling experience.

What I now know:

Varget proved to be a viable powder. Was temp stable over the range we shot at (about a 15C spread). No problem retaining accuracy after over 100rds fired without cleaning. Vertical was excellent and within 5 ring for sure. Really hard to say if it was as tight as V bull as I, and everyone else, was tossed around so badly, no conclusion can be made. I did however shoot a row of V's when I got the winds figured out (didn't last long)

Being able to figure out the winds was the biggest hurdle and I struggled Friday to try and get any semblance of 'aimed' fire. Sat improved and on Sunday, I actually had some excellent results.

Last relay on Sunday was one of the best scores for F TR on that day. One of the highest V bulls too. A great way to end a most demoralizing weekend.

SO.... the bullet will go where you want IF you know where to send it. Shooting with other 308's, we all got tossed around and I didn't see any huge difference in good/bad. When you figured out the air, you hit well. Then the air changed and you scrambled to get back on center IF you didn't understand the new air.

To go from center to outside the 2 ring for the next shot, then across to 3 rings on the other side for the next was not out of the ordinary. Scary part, I still got blown wide into the 4 ring on the opposite side. This is where I was bleeding points by being just out.

The 223/90 demands you are very good at your wind calls and precise on your hold offs. I doubt shooting a 308 would be any different - at least all the moans and groans sure didn't indicate there was a wind bucking combo.

I shot with some F/O shooters Sat and Sunday. My scores were lower but some relays I was matching shot for shot the points until things got really screwy and I got blown that much more out.

I shot a ton of 4's that were within 1/2" of the 5 ring. It was so painful but you know those shots were out. Here having the better ballistics helped a ton with the F/O rigs and they stayed in the 5 ring.

When things were horrid, I would be blown off 1 extra scoring ring then the F/O. That is expected given the ballistics.

My elevation to 900m/almost 1000yds was 26 to 28mins (yep, serious daily changes in vertical due to the air). This agrees with the ballistics charts with a muzzle velocity of 2800fps.

I have just chronied my load and it is around 2780fps - close enough.

The bullet seems to fly true to the G7 BC.

At the end, I stayed above the middle of the pack. Not great, not bad. I am happy with much of the results despite the score. I learnt a ton and I will figure out how to drive this combo.

Recoil is zip, barrel heat is mild - you can shoot it all day and have no recoil related fatigue. To me, that is a huge plus.

Jerry

PS, I have retested Leverolution at a lower load. Seems to shoot very nicely at 500m. Wil make a very nice practise powder if things keep at this level. SO much easier to dump then weigh powder.
 
Not sure where the difference would come from, but, I just came back from the RNBRA prize meet and my elevation from 300m-900m was 23.5-24MOA. I shot a light load of 23.5gn of N150 at 2715fps. Held much better vertical than I thought, especially with the 30deg temperatures. Definitely less than 5ring at 900. Also hard to argue with a 50-10V at 800m.....

Had to do a shoot-off at 900 and the first part of the shoot-off was 2+5 on score on your own target. I had less than 1/2MOA elevation for my string, wind blew me out to a 5 and than I made a bad call for another 5 in the same place and lost 25-3 to a 25-4, which was shot by a great shooter who deserved it, he shot very well all weekend.
 
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That is fantastic shooting. Well N150 is certainly working for you.

I am not sure what all the past concerns about vertical have been. As long as my loading is correct, I see very little at long range. Where a problem will occur is using a temp sensitive powder and having the load 'cook' off.

pressures too high and too close to the edge.

that is what happened with my Leverolution experiment. Great accuracy but you need a new load every 5C which will not work in a match situation.

Shooting a 50-10V is ..... AWESOME. You guys are sure shooting very high scores if you are doing cleans with high V count at 900m

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Varget proved to be a viable powder. Was temp stable over the range we shot at (about a 15C spread). No problem retaining accuracy after over 100rds fired without cleaning.
Click to expand...

Jerry, I shoot the same Varget load in my 6BR from -20 to +30 with nary an accuracy issue. 15c change wont make a lick of difference to that stuff.
 
Hmm. 7 twist works you say? Interesting, time to dig in the barrel barrel (yes, that is the correct term, I keep all my spare barrels in a large barrel) and see if I have one. I have 223 and 223 AI rifles in 1-9, 1-12, and 1-14. Maybe time for a larger case 22 on a 1-7 to try these bullets out.

Jerry, are these Bergers easy to get in Canada? I have a few Berger bullets in various calibers and weights, but supply has been spotty over the years. - dan
 
CyaN1de said:
Jerry, I shoot the same Varget load in my 6BR from -20 to +30 with nary an accuracy issue. 15c change wont make a lick of difference to that stuff.
Click to expand...

I have shot Varget for years and also know it is temp stable.

The problem with the 223 is the small case volume so minute changes in effective load can really screw with tuning.

Other powders haven't worked out as temp changes can make a load go off tune or worst, blow primers. That happened at the Sierra match in the spring.

My goal is also to find a powder that can drop from a powder measure and retain all the goodness of powders like Varget.

Leverolution worked superbly AT ONE TEMP. Went off if temps ranged more then 5C so needed constant fiddling. As a practise powder, no problem. For a match, no good.

There are other ball powders reported to be temp stable. Will have to give them a test.

Jerry
 
dan belisle said:
Hmm. 7 twist works you say? Interesting, time to dig in the barrel barrel (yes, that is the correct term, I keep all my spare barrels in a large barrel) and see if I have one. I have 223 and 223 AI rifles in 1-9, 1-12, and 1-14. Maybe time for a larger case 22 on a 1-7 to try these bullets out.

Jerry, are these Bergers easy to get in Canada? I have a few Berger bullets in various calibers and weights, but supply has been spotty over the years. - dan
Click to expand...

I have even shot these 90's with an 8 twist Shilen SLOW and they had no issue making it to 1200yds. But I am around 3000ft above sea level and maybe that is a bit too slow for humid Chilliwack (no idea).

I built a 22-250 7 twist on a Mcgowen to see if I could blow up these Bergers. Close to 3200fps with all bullets making it to target. Around 3100fps, it was in the 1/2" range at 200yds.

That makes for one heck of a nice zapper.

As a Berger dealer, it is just a matter of putting these bullets on order. In general, supply is no problem but there are times when there are changeovers and certain cals take a bit to get.

Berger has certainly had delivery issues in the past but that was also due to the lack of jackets. Last year, there were almost no 6.5 bullets made as the jacket machine went boom.

I believe their size now allows them to have spare equipment and their product flows have been much better.

I am also working on another supply of custom VLD bullets. Superb reputation, a bit more money then Berger but if they fly well, worth it.
Jerry
 
I decided to join the dark side. I unscrewed the 308 Barrel on my Barnard F/TR rifle and installed my Krieger 1-7 twist 223 barrel. I was waiting until after the Eastern Canadian F Class championships and the RNBRA prize meet before starting my load development with the 223 due to time constraints.

I intend to start with the Berger 90Gr VLD’s with Varget and CCI 450 primers. I was thinking of starting at 23.0Gr of Varget and working my way up from there. I am having a hard time finding load information on the 90’s with the 223. My chamber has 0.164 FB.
 
More testing with some new loads. 500m, light gusty winds right to left, overcast with sun breaking through now and then, moderate mirage. Around 20C

Video is loading on youtube as I type this. You can see the first target on the left. Decent group, adjusted for vertical and wind to drop the V bull but overall, the group is low and a bit right.

The first 3 shots I was trying for a group that you see in the 5 oclock in the 5 ring. I didn't want to bore everyone with that part of the video.

The winds were pretty gusty which you can hear on the video.

Then things got a bit calmer and I shot the next 6 rds. I have no clue why shot 2 went straight up but I waited for some time for whatever condition to pass. Then I took my time plunking the next 4 on target. you can view the results.

I did move around the target abit for wind and elevation to compensate for change. Sure happy with the last shot cause I called it just right me thinks

Very happy with the result and if you forgive shot 2, this is the smallest group I have shot at 500m.

Measures 1 1/16" X 1/8" C2C. I think this load has decent control of vertical :)

If someone can tell me how to embed the video, I will. I know how to embed a picture but my attempts at the vid have failed.

The Shilen Savage prefit Select Match has 2300rds when this group was shot. I guess the barrel still has some life left and those 90gr Berger VLD's sure can fly nice.

Looks like my new bipod is doing its job just fine too.

The winds picked up after this so it was back to driving around the target but shots were going where I was expecting.

I need to do further testing for temp stability and fouling. I sure hope this load keeps working because I sure had some good shooting today.

We are getting there.

Jerry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrhB29UIpJ4
 
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