90gr Berger VLD and the 223 - 500m Group 1 1/16"X 1/8" see post 357

mysticplayer said:
I am not surprised at all at the potency of the 223.

Jerry
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Very interesting... and thank you for the articles.

I like the idea of .223 for LR. Especially "less recoil" and "less bulky/weight" part. Need.learn.more.

Funny that... "Just when you think you figured it out - you're wrong!" (me about myself, lol). I buried .223 for myself a long time ago. Should take a second look, lol. :p
 
cb, it's all about the bullets and we have seen a great range of yummy ones coming out over the last 5yrs in most calibers.

3yrs ago, I sent some 80gr Amax out to a mile accurately. Without this type of bullet design, that would have a task in frustration and futility. Now, its just needs a whole lot of up.

Today, the generic 9 twist Savage can keep up with all the various 308 options from the last several decades. A 80gr in an 8 twist is the same as the best a 308 can muster without creative 'engineering'.

Now that there are 90gr VLD's, the 223 has vaulted into the realm of the 6BR and can improve on the 308 performance.

Of course, a new 30cal bullet may swing the debate the other way but there is not going to be a reduction in recoil based on present bullet construction tech.

Now, that might change too as we move towards a leadless sport.

That could get real interesting....

Jerry
 
Ganderite said:
I went through 4 barrels in 22-250 AI shooting 80 Sierras, before I conceded that barrel life was only 1000 rounds. I could get 3400 fps, but bullets tended to blow.

So 3000+ with a 90 gr is there to be had, but I fear barrel life is still an issue.

Barrel life is cost and also the frustration of having to take a rifle out of service for awhile and then do some load development all over again.

But, the reason i kept doing it was that the caliiber was accurate. Custom reamer with deep throat.
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Barrel life will not be as bad if you use a better case design. A 22BR or Dasher will get you the speed you need with a 90gr VLD with at least twice the life, if not 3x as much as a 22-250 or 22-250AI
 
"Barrel life will not be as bad if you use a better case design. A 22BR or Dasher will get you the speed you need with a 90gr VLD with at least twice the life, if not 3x as much as a 22-250 or 22-250AI "


I find myself thinking a 22BR would be about right.
 
Ganderite said:
"Barrel life will not be as bad if you use a better case design. A 22BR or Dasher will get you the speed you need with a 90gr VLD with at least twice the life, if not 3x as much as a 22-250 or 22-250AI "

I find myself thinking a 22BR would be about right.
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If you are into fclass, going out of 223 rem would take you out of FTR and stick you into the f open class - then you will have to compete with the big rigs head to head all the way back to 1000 yds and back there these 90s cant be expected to do very well against FO hardware. They just dont have the BC for it.

Once you cross that line into FO, you would be far better off with a 6.5 or 7mm.

If you want to stay in FTR class...
I suspect the long bearing surface on 90 grainers is the reason they are so accurate at close range. But with only about 25 grains of powder in 223 any small error in weight will result in wild verticals at long range. To shoot this cartridge well at long range you will need to have your act together on the bench 120%. Even if you do, it would take an act of god to win with it at 800 to 1000 against FO.

If you just want a close range FO rig or varmint gun, a 6BR with an 8" twist would be a lot less finicky.
 
Ganderite said:
"Barrel life will not be as bad if you use a better case design. A 22BR or Dasher will get you the speed you need with a 90gr VLD with at least twice the life, if not 3x as much as a 22-250 or 22-250AI "


I find myself thinking a 22BR would be about right.
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Give SteveB a shout. He is running one in FO right now. The rifle is a laser but gets bounced around in the winds.

If you crunch the numbers, you will find that you had the right case idea to begin with. I worked with these 90's in a 22/250 and pushed them to over 3200fps. They didn't blow up

At that velocity, they compare well to the 6.5's and 7's for way less recoil.

Barrel life sucks but that is the trade off.

The 22BR is a very easy cartridge to get shooting well and does offer nice speed and accuracy. BUT in FO, you are up against much better wind buckers.

The further you go, the less happy you are going to be.

You would be miles ahead with your 260 improved.

With my not so happy shoulder, I can't keep up in this recoil race so am going to move to F TR in the coming seasons.

Any F TR shooter that can get an overall win is some good wind reader for sure.

Jerry
 
There is no reason why the 22BR can't be competetive against any F-Open rig out to 600m (660yds approx).

The 90gr Berger has a better BC than both of the 105 VLD offerings from Berger. In fact, if conditions are calm, there is no reason it shouldn't reach out to 900m (100yds) easily.

I shot a 200.9X at 1000yds with my 6BR this spring in Sacramento and see no reason why the 22BR shooting 90gr pills couldn't do the same if the nut behind the butt doesn't come unglued.

Now....when the winds kick up.....it's a whole new ballgame. :D
 
CyaN1de said:
There is no reason why the 22BR can't be competetive against any F-Open rig out to 600m (660yds approx).
:D
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Actually there's lot's of reasons....

F Open has become a bit like golf where you need to pick the best club for the shot you need to make. If wind conditions are negligable, yes the small guns can put up good scores and may be the preffered choice at short range. If its windy then something with a better BC will much more likely win it.

Then again at the 1000 yard line even on a calm day these small pills are never the best choice for squadded fclass. There is just too much going on in the wind over the time between shots and distance and a bigger round with a better BC is going to win it.

To the golf bag of guns train of thought, there is talk of changing the rules so that a guy must use the same gun throughout the entire match. So you couldnt pick the ideal gun for each distance and condition.

In that case you can play strategy for medals. You could pick away at close range medals with 90 grain 224s and BR variants but concede to give up the long range and daily Aggs - or go after the aggs with something bigger but may not take many individual distances. Or focus on long range with a 300 wsm canon and forget the aggs and close range stuff.

The guys who tend to win provincial events have typically been using something in the middle.

In the USA the closest they shoot is from 600 yards, so they tend to do best with bigger stuff.
 
German Salazar just wrote a very good article on Palma shooting. This is 8-9-1000 yard shooting with 223 or 308 - any bullet weight.

He is a well-know, very-respected High-Master, and he's an author of many technical articles.

He has a very interesting take on the 223 for long range, and they interestingly echo the sentiments of Stan Pate. (team Savage)
 
German is certainly one of the most experienced Palma shooters in NA.

However, I found some of his points contradictory.

On the one hand he doesn't like to push pressures for the 223 but gladly does so for the 308????

Of course, if either cartridge is held to SAAMI specs, their performance is not even in the same ballpark.

Vertical dispersion in a 223 is largely affected by loading of that powder charge. We have no idea what his gear or technique is. I am sure he used some very good tech but did he use all the possible tweaks???

I also found his preference for Win brass and Russian primers interesting.

As I have said throughout this post, the 223 is a new endeavor and much is still needed to be learnt about how to make it work at its best.

The more shooters test, the more we will learn, and the better this combo will work out.

The 308 has 60yrs of development. The 223 is breaking 3 or maybe 4 yrs with the 90gr VLD's but has already shown promise.

Time will tell.

The one thing that will never change is the amount of recoil between the two.

Jerry
 
I have a new 29" Kreiger barrel on the way to be chambered for a 223 bolt gun. I want to give the new Berger 90 Gr VLD's & BT's a try. I am looking to get a 223 rem match reamer with a longer freebore. Does anyone have a freebore lenght recommendation for these bullets or a print of a reamer they have used. The reamer will have a 1.5 degree throat angle.
 
For the Berger 90gr VLD, to get the bullet boattail in alignment with the case neck/shoulder junction, most will have an OAL of 2.6" to 2.65"

If you are going to have a reamer made up, then build a couple of dummy rds and send them to the reamer manf. That way they can set the 'jump' to your specs.

I did mine using a throater as I was using standard 223 reamers from Shilen and McGowen.

Let us know how your rifle shoots.

Jerry

PS, if you need a couple of dummy rds, let me know.
 
If you load it to a 2.67-.675 you will be safe in case the dreaded "donut" arrives.

Personally, I wouldn't get a reamer made up for that much freebore because the only use for that reamer will be 90VLD/BT's. If you get a standard .223 or .223 match reamer with a standard freebore length, you can still chamber another barrel and use it for whatever bullet you want, 69-90grns (assuming match bullets) and then when you get the throater you will be able to cut however far you wish. If you need to set back the barrel after a couple thousand rounds and want to switch bullets, you aren't limited by the excessive freebore length of a custom reamer.

Just my opinion.
 
Diver: For the 90 Berger VLD use a 223 Wylde reamer. This will seat the bullets where you want to be. It is a very common reamer. This will put them out to 2.600" and into the lands where the bullet likes to shoot. Try H4350 at about 2750 - 2775 fps.

I use the 223 and 90's in my wife's F class rifle up to 500 meters with totally acceptable results. However, I noticed at the last match the difference between 500 and 600 meters is huge. These bullets really get bounced around in the wind and far worse than heavier bullets. In calm conditions they will equal anything but in the winds they are hard to control. You have to be a far better wind reader than I am at the present.

I have read everything I can find on the net and most of the critisim revolves around using the 90's at 1000 yards. You can shoot them at closer ranges and be equal to anything out there.

I can tell you they work very well at closer ranges and way better than the 80's. They also seem to be very tolerent and easy to tune.

Steve
 
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I am glad we could push you over the edge :) Soon enough there will be a good F-tr rifle for sale that would be great for the .223/90's. Savage action, brand new Shilen 1-7 30" barrel etc.. as I make the move to TR, something has to give.
 
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