another one Outfitter fined for unauthorized hunting

Guides actually get a finer toothed comb than the general public, and rightly so- they're paid to know the rules. This fellow paid to the tune of five figures going into the Yukon coffers, and rightly so. That he should be banned from his job forever or any of the other insinuations strikes me as ridiculously harsh given he wasn't poaching sheep, they were in season, he was on the wrong side of a resident / outfitter division in two adjoining areas. Big mistake, and a big fine. The CO's know the situation better than we ever will and judged him to be honest, and in the wrong. There is also a severe misconception that all of a hunt is profit, when often it's as little as 10% after your area payments (they aren't cheap), insurance, and the glut of expenses. This fellow took a hit, and earned it. Don't think he earned losing his career though.
 
Ardent said:
Guides actually get a finer toothed comb than the general public, and rightly so- they're paid to know the rules. This fellow paid to the tune of five figures going into the Yukon coffers, and rightly so. That he should be banned from his job forever or any of the other insinuations strikes me as ridiculously harsh given he wasn't poaching sheep, they were in season, he was on the wrong side of a resident / outfitter division in two adjoining areas. Big mistake, and a big fine. The CO's know the situation better than we ever will and judged him to be honest, and in the wrong. There is also a severe misconception that all of a hunt is profit, when often it's as little as 10% after your area payments (they aren't cheap), insurance, and the glut of expenses. This fellow took a hit, and earned it. Don't think he earned losing his career though.
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Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one. He was poaching as there was no open season for outfitters to hunt there. If he has the right to hunt in one area but choses to hunt an area that is closed to him that is poaching. As you said he should know the rules better than anyone as its his job to. So when he chooses to ignore those rules his repercussions should be more severe, not less, then what a resident would receive. Those animals should have been ceased as well as they taken illegally. It sucks for those hunters as they were only following their guide but rules are rules no matter how much you pay.
 
Ardent said:
Guides actually get a finer toothed comb than the general public, and rightly so- they're paid to know the rules. This fellow paid to the tune of five figures going into the Yukon coffers, and rightly so. That he should be banned from his job forever or any of the other insinuations strikes me as ridiculously harsh given he wasn't poaching sheep, they were in season, he was on the wrong side of a resident / outfitter division in two adjoining areas. Big mistake, and a big fine. The CO's know the situation better than we ever will and judged him to be honest, and in the wrong. There is also a severe misconception that all of a hunt is profit, when often it's as little as 10% after your area payments (they aren't cheap), insurance, and the glut of expenses. This fellow took a hit, and earned it. Don't think he earned losing his career though.
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i respect your position Angus.
My take is that a guide outfitter knows his areas and I would suggest the scenario of "OOPS, I didn't realized I was is in error" is total horsechit.
please don't throw your hat in to play the angels advocate for an outfitter who was found guilty and it's my guess and strong opinion that most resident hunters would feel that he got off light...... the cost of doing business one could say.
 
Ardent said:
Guides actually get a finer toothed comb than the general public, and rightly so- they're paid to know the rules. This fellow paid to the tune of five figures going into the Yukon coffers, and rightly so. That he should be banned from his job forever or any of the other insinuations strikes me as ridiculously harsh given he wasn't poaching sheep, they were in season, he was on the wrong side of a resident / outfitter division in two adjoining areas. Big mistake, and a big fine. The CO's know the situation better than we ever will and judged him to be honest, and in the wrong. There is also a severe misconception that all of a hunt is profit, when often it's as little as 10% after your area payments (they aren't cheap), insurance, and the glut of expenses. This fellow took a hit, and earned it. Don't think he earned losing his career though.
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Yup, I have to disagree as well Angus...

they're paid to know the rules
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Exactly.

ridiculously harsh given he wasn't poaching sheep, they were in season
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So an example... If Bighorn sheep in Alberta is open, lets say in 412 for example. And I am out hunting 412 and cross over into Banff National Park and kill a monster park ram, It was an honest mistake? My idea of poaching is breaking the rules to kill an animal. Whether it be in the wrong area, out of season, basically breaking the law to get the animal.

There is also a severe misconception that all of a hunt is profit, when often it's as little as 10% after your area payments (they aren't cheap), insurance, and the glut of expenses. This fellow took a hit,
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10%??? Come on Angus, lets be serious. You aren't fooling me. My father was a backpack sheep guide in the NWT and Yukon for a very long time. I have a pretty good idea what is made on these hunts. Yes, there is serious overhead but you are kidding yourself saying 10% on a $25,000 sheep hunt.

I am going to hazard a guess here(just a guess so don't over analyze). Lets say two $25,000 successful sheep hunts in an area the outfitter was not supposed to be in. The outfitter gets caught, says it was a mistake and the hunters keep those sheep. The outfitter pays $11,500 and says he is sorry. Does this math add up to you? Do you see why locals are pissed about the outcome? $11,500 out of two hunts of around $50,000 isn't hurting the outfitter at all.(remember, I don't know exactly the cost of those hunts, Just an example)

IMHO, the outfitter should have to pay those fines($11,500), the sheep handed in from the hunters, and the outfitter pays full price of those hunts back to the trusting hunters. That would be a good start from making such a mistake again. If the outfitter cant pay, bye bye to outfitting area... That is my take on what should have happened.

I have been around guiding and outfitting since I was a small child. I am not against it at all, I grew up with it. But rules should be followed. You said it, they are paid to know the rules. That is the business they are in.
 
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sgt.rock said:
Sounds like he made an honest mistake, came forward and accepted his blame, paid his fine and moved on. Nothing to see here, move along
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I've been reading this story for quite a while, without replying, but the one thing I believe after all the info I've read in these posts, is that what took place was not an honest mistake. I think the guide/outfitter knowingly bent the rules, and went into an area, that he knew was off limits, just never expected anyone to catch them out... that's what I believe.
 
The sheep should have been forfeited. There is no way that someone should be allowed to keep an animal that was harvested in a location where it was not legal for them to hunt that animal.
 
crazy_davey said:
I am going to hazard a guess here(just a guess so don't over analyze). Lets say two $25,000 successful sheep hunts in an area the outfitter was not supposed to be in. The outfitter gets caught, says it was a mistake and the hunters keep those sheep. The outfitter pays $11,500 and says he is sorry. Does this math add up to you? Do you see why locals are pissed about the outcome? $11,500 out of two hunts of around $50,000 isn't hurting the outfitter at all.(remember, I don't know exactly the cost of those hunts, Just an example)

IMHO, the outfitter should have to pay those fines($11,500), the sheep handed in from the hunters, and the outfitter pays full price of those hunts back to the trusting hunters. That would be a good start from making such a mistake again. If the outfitter cant pay, bye bye to outfitting area... That is my take on what should have happened.
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I would agree with this, and just to add, the outfitter may very well lose his license yet. I don't know how things operate in the Yukon, but in MB it's not the courts that suspend a license, it's the Wildlife Branch administration after a court decision. As an example, if an outfitter here is convicted of hunting in an area he's not licensed to operate in, he'd lose his outfitters license for 5 years.
The hunters in this case probably didn't lose their sheep as the DNR didn't want to punish them as they aren't really expected to know the areas.
 
the problem is we do not know who were the hunters not released in the court papers and second he was with his guide in a place where he shouldnt be and he knew that as he wondered in that area well before the hunt where he was supposed to be hunting only after the 1st of september.

the area is well know and was really a paradise for sheep hunters as only a few were taken every year, we do not know how many has been taken there as the DNR office is not willing to release it and they are not willing to communicate for the number of sheeps taken by the outffiter this year.

the outfitting concession can be reviewed every year by Yukon environment office but i do not think something will happen without a lot of voices raised.

what i will say for those who defend the outfitters in general and that one in particular they have no clue about who he is. this is not the first time he got some issues and his family and partners lost the area 15 few years ago now he is in the 17 (where the previous operator had big issue with wilidlife violations and it was a local). they were known to push away sheep (stone in that area so more than 25 000 for sure lol) and caribou from the locals im talking about zone 15. do not know the price for actual dall sheep in zone 17 but is someone is willing to ask we will get an idea.

there are in Yukon very good local operators for hunting, but this is not the right example i will use for that one (he s not local and not even particpate really in the local economy). im pretty not even 10% of his income are spend locally.

and yes the sheeps should have been forfeited and the fines should had been more than the double what he charged for his hunt.

in yukon there is no distinction between a guide an outfitter or a non resident hunter when the fault is done someone has to pay if caught of course. many times the clients are paying too, on that one maybe the hunters where the guides themselves we do not know.

the hunters that where there at that moment are the only one that can say a word if hunter there is.
 
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crazy_davey said:
Yup, I have to disagree as well Angus...







So an example... If Bighorn sheep in Alberta is open, lets say in 412 for example. And I am out hunting 412 and cross over into Banff National Park and kill a monster park ram, It was an honest mistake? My idea of poaching is breaking the rules to kill an animal. Whether it be in the wrong area, out of season, basically breaking the law to get the animal.



10%??? Come on Angus, lets be serious. You aren't fooling me. My father was a backpack sheep guide in the NWT and Yukon for a very long time. I have a pretty good idea what is made on these hunts. Yes, there is serious overhead but you are kidding yourself saying 10% on a $25,000 sheep hunt.

I am going to hazard a guess here(just a guess so don't over analyze). Lets say two $25,000 successful sheep hunts in an area the outfitter was not supposed to be in. The outfitter gets caught, says it was a mistake and the hunters keep those sheep. The outfitter pays $11,500 and says he is sorry. Does this math add up to you? Do you see why locals are pissed about the outcome? $11,500 out of two hunts of around $50,000 isn't hurting the outfitter at all.(remember, I don't know exactly the cost of those hunts, Just an example)

IMHO, the outfitter should have to pay those fines($11,500), the sheep handed in from the hunters, and the outfitter pays full price of those hunts back to the trusting hunters. That would be a good start from making such a mistake again. If the outfitter cant pay, bye bye to outfitting area... That is my take on what should have happened.

I have been around guiding and outfitting since I was a small child. I am not against it at all, I grew up with it. But rules should be followed. You said it, they are paid to know the rules. That is the business they are in.
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Crazy Davey,

a few locals said that we should go on the Kluane side of the lifetime sheep permit with 400 applicants for one tag every year (that is lot of people here) ... and make an honest mistake keep the huge sheep and pay the fine .....

so you are spot on. expect that guy should had lost his permit for ever. as a hunter if caught i cant hunt for 5 years and he can guide again and again ....

the sheep population has depleted in this area : something happened that we do not know yet and the government is taking his time about releasing the numbers of sheep taken ...

they will not work for that 10% ... i ve been a guide and an outfitter (even not in Yukon) and i know what kind of money you generate. if an outfitting concession cost $1.5million to purchase there is no way they will work for free. and there is enough hunters to come after dall sheep especially when a zone has been protected for years, close to 17 years from non resident hunting pressure.
 
IMO... the trophies should NOT have been forfeited by the hunters... they paid good money for the outfitter to KNOW that info on their behalf... the outfitter should have to forfeit all fees charged for the hunts, and those moneys should go to the province/territory game coffers... in addition to any fines levied. I don't think that losing his outfitters permit would be necessary on a first offence, because if the penalty was laid out as I indicated, a second offence would be unlikely. JMO, I have no pony in this race... but when I was in the guiding business many years ago, I had to deal with the fall-out from less than scrupulous outfitters in adjoining areas... the profession was painted with the same wide brush... it stung a little.
 
you are right not all are the same. but again on that specific case this is not the first time they had issues. the family of that GO and the investors lost the right to operate the area 15 ... not happening if you do nothing ... and that guy was in charge of that area 15 when things happened.

when a guide is doing something wrong the outfitter get his part too when fines are coming and clients depending on the circumstances can get into it too and lost meat, hide and trophies.

in that case the hunters were not even on the court papers because maybe there were no hunters and the guide and outfitter were taking themselves a sheep, second the hunters had no knowledge of that area or third they reported it ...

but im not painting everybody with the same brush there is very good operators here but not that one.
 
hoytcanon said:
IMO... the trophies should NOT have been forfeited by the hunters... they paid good money for the outfitter to KNOW that info on their behalf... the outfitter should have to forfeit all fees charged for the hunts, and those moneys should go to the province/territory game coffers... in addition to any fines levied. I don't think that losing his outfitters permit would be necessary on a first offence, because if the penalty was laid out as I indicated, a second offence would be unlikely. JMO, I have no pony in this race... but when I was in the guiding business many years ago, I had to deal with the fall-out from less than scrupulous outfitters in adjoining areas... the profession was painted with the same wide brush... it stung a little.
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I feel bad for the hunters if they truly thought they were hunting in a legal area.

If these rams were given consideration for B&C, SCI or towards a Grand Slam would they qualify for entry? I'm guessing they would not and if that was important to these hunters, that has got to sting!
 
Admittedly, I'm on my smartphone and at present only able to skim. Full disclosure time; I'm an outfitter these days as well, 10% is dead on for my area.

Examples,

My area payment is $2500 a month. Insurance for the boat, outfit, and plane stacks up to a disgusting figure. I get $30,000 for a coastal grizzly hunt, which after income taxes doesn't even make the basic costs to have the area. The plane payment, I won't even work in here but it's only being bought to service the area. If I run a coastal grizzly, of which I only get one a year, and several mountain goats after expenses I will have 10% over what I put in, in fuel, insurance, food, helper wages, aircraft and boat maintenance. I actually lose money if the time off my day job to run the hunts is considered, but I will enjoy life a lot more. It is not the gold mine people figure, it's a passion for most involved. You'll find nearly all outfitters made their money in other industries, that's almost universal, and they hunt because they love it. We're no different, building a future and set of experiences for my sons, and taking a pay cut to do it.

Outfitters aren't popular in BC lately and hopefully this being said doesn't result in constant slagging and arguing.
 
Ardent said:
Admittedly, I'm on my smartphone and at present only able to skim. Full disclosure time; I'm an outfitter these days as well, 10% is dead on for my area.

Outfitters aren't popular in BC lately and hopefully this being said doesn't result in constant slagging and arguing.
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Ardent.... as you can attest to, and contrary to popular opinion... outfitters don't get into the business to make money... the usual factors are; a love for the game and a passion for the outdoors, and usually an aptitude to pursue and harvest the game animals. My experience is that guides and outfitters are highly ethical and conservation oriented... that is simply good business from a sustainable perspective. It is unfortunate that just as the general public like to use the words "poachers" and "hunters" interchangeably, some less scrupulous outfitters can do much damage to an otherwise respectable profession. In my experience, when untoward behaviour occurs, it is other members of that profession that are the most outraged... policing our own ranks, regardless of the fraternity, makes good sense... much of our blathering on CGN relates to ethics.

Congratulations (I think) on stepping into the guiding arena... the more dedicated, adept and passionate people involved, the merrier. It is a fine thing to facilitate dreams coming to fruition.
 
Ardent said:
Admittedly, I'm on my smartphone and at present only able to skim. Full disclosure time; I'm an outfitter these days as well, 10% is dead on for my area.

Examples,

My area payment is $2500 a month. Insurance for the boat, outfit, and plane stacks up to a disgusting figure. I get $30,000 for a coastal grizzly hunt, which after income taxes doesn't even make the basic costs to have the area. The plane payment, I won't even work in here but it's only being bought to service the area. If I run a coastal grizzly, of which I only get one a year, and several mountain goats after expenses I will have 10% over what I put in, in fuel, insurance, food, helper wages, aircraft and boat maintenance. I actually lose money if the time off my day job to run the hunts is considered, but I will enjoy life a lot more. It is not the gold mine people figure, it's a passion for most involved. You'll find nearly all outfitters made their money in other industries, that's almost universal, and they hunt because they love it. We're no different, building a future and set of experiences for my sons, and taking a pay cut to do it.

Outfitters aren't popular in BC lately and hopefully this being said doesn't result in constant slagging and arguing.
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some of us kinda figured that out awhile ago ;) (you joining the industry that is)
you are a respected forum member Angus and as is told in your many posts , you are a passionate and experienced outdoorsman who's been privledged to hunt far and wide and have adventures that the majority of folks can only dream.
you should not be sitting there feeling like cgn members are painting you with the same brush as this dirtbag outfitter and those like him.
lead by example and join the spitroasting of those in the outfitting industry who do the culture of hunting a great dishonor.

my disdain for the outfitting business is directed at dirtbag outfitters/guides and the GOABC which is actively working against resident hunters
not individual guides or outfitters
I also believe however, there should be zero foreign ownership in the industry and zero foreign employment in the industry, period.
And I believe there needs to be greater fines and suspensions of business operating privledges for ANY and ALL who break or stretch the law.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.... should apply to everyone .
 
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IMO... the trophies should NOT have been forfeited by the hunters... they paid good money for the outfitter to KNOW that info on their behalf..
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Whether or not the hunters knew that they were hunting illegally, does not change the fact that they had no legal right to shoot those animals, therefore they should not be able to keep the trophies.
 
Thanks Greg, by the book is the only way to run, flying has taught me that- and you feel good at the end of the day. It's easier for me than this fellow in the Yukon, while our area is likely comparable in size or even larger, it's homogenous and all within one unit. So there are no excuses on regulations or seasons, it also makes my life easier. We'll introduce you to it soon enough!

Thomas thanks, and agree on all counts. We're operating on the coast I grew up on and we face the same challenge of foreign parties in my day job, the helicopter industry is flooded by Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits. I believe in Canada first and a couple friends are getting deals as we speak. Ultimately hope to have a successful outfit for my boys to work in every fall down the road, but it's no gold mine. If I get a 10% return on investment, I'm outperforming the stock market and really cooking. Even 10% is optimistic, but pleasure and fulfilment aplenty. I'm hunting with a couple respected members here, and I have 2/3rds Canadian clients for the first two years so far, a South African and one good American round out the mix. Residents are not only welcomed but supported, as I've been a resident hunter far longer than an outfitter, no tension or arguments- you're even welcome to hop in the jet boat for a trip upstream if you like.
 
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