another one Outfitter fined for unauthorized hunting

[bearkilr]

Whether or not the hunters knew that they were hunting illegally, does not change the fact that they had no legal right to shoot those animals, therefore they should not be able to keep the trophies.

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at the situation and an understandable knee-jerk reaction, but you have to keep the tourism industry as a whole in mind. Confiscating the trophies won't bring them back to life, but would reflect rather poorly on the Yukon as a hunting destination. From what we know, the outfitter is at fault here, and he's the one that needs to bear the burden 100%.
That said, I realize there are many who would like nothing more than never seeing another non resident hunter, so they care little what happens to the hunters.

 

[medvedqc]

Yukon has been a world top notch destination but that doesnt someone can act as an a.. and get only the rewards.

most of the trophy hunters especially the sheep hunters are well educated and most of them know what they re doing.

i have no problem with non residents coming here to hunt but first as in any other juridictions in North America local hunters then if there is room why not. but again that place was not hunted for the last 17 years by non residents ...

there is good outfitters in the Yukon, this one is not for sure.

oh i want to see what tourism industry especially hunting is bringing as an economic side in the Yukon.

what is making the north to live is mining and oil industry like it or not. tourism is peanuts and hunting is peanuts on tourism side dont let be fooled by that.

 

[45ACPKING]

Angus, ya never know, if I ever do take up a guided hunt or go with an outfitter, I'll surely be in touch
Personally, a few years ago I was offered the chance to get into an outfitting business at the entry level. I'd make a damn fine camp cook too. I've been a hardcore mostly self taught fisherman and hunter for most of my life , tho most of my personal trophy exploits have had fins.
sadly, with my outspoken nature , I burned those bridges over some differences of opinion and a couple loose teeth , which weren't mine.
I'm taking up gold prospecting hahaha probably less than 10% return but hell it'll be adventure.
The wife and I have been getting the itch to go north from the Cariboo and I believe within 2 years we will be in the Yukon....... just haven't found my "happy" place yet
I'd love to be a hunting guide or part of a guiding crew, would be an adventure more valuable than the paycheck but I'm afraid my can't shut the hell up nature would go against the grain with BC's guide outfitter association and most of it's members LOL

 

[Ardent]

Whether or not the hunters knew that they were hunting illegally, does not change the fact that they had no legal right to shoot those animals, therefore they should not be able to keep the trophies.

Considering the population wasn't threatened in any way, I find this absurd and ridiculous. Consider the typical client isn't the super wealthy fat cat most picture, but actually the guy who's saved for years, ticked off his wife, and finally booked the hunt and has to trust his guide knows all the ins and outs. You really feel it's appropriate to confiscate their sheep they paid fifty grand to hunt through an error that was no fault of their own? Glad you're not in government! Sheep was in season, the animals were legal shooters, but on the wrong side of a division the guide made no attempt to hide- it's very likely he screwed up and he's paid the piper. So, does anyone know how the fine applies in the Yukon? Did the guide take the hit, or the outfitter? Here in BC it would likely be the guide, as he was the one who physically went into the wrong area, the outiftter very likely wasn't even aware. In that case a good guide earns $300 a day plus tips, and this fine would have hurt something serious. I'm not sure if this was discussed earlier and I've forgotten, this thread has wound a bit.

 

[stubblejumper]

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at the situation and an understandable knee-jerk reaction, but you have to keep the tourism industry as a whole in mind. Confiscating the trophies won't bring them back to life, but would reflect rather poorly on the Yukon as a hunting destination. From what we know, the outfitter is at fault here, and he's the one that needs to bear the burden 100%.
That said, I realize there are many who would like nothing more than never seeing another non resident hunter, so they care little what happens to the hunters.

It wouldn't reflect poorly on the Yukon at all, it would reflect poorly on the outfitter. Nobody, including the hunter, should benefit from an animal that was illegally harvested.

Consider the typical client isn't the super wealthy fat cat most picture, but actually the guy who's saved for years, ticked off his wife, and finally booked the hunt and has to trust his guide knows all the ins and outs. You really feel it's appropriate to confiscate their sheep they paid fifty grand to hunt through an error that was no fault of their own?

The outfitter should have to reimburse the hunter 100% for all expenses that the hunter incurred to go on the hunt, but no illegally taken trophies should be kept by hunters.

This is no different than buying property from someone that obtained that property illegally. You don't get to keep the illegally obtained property, just because you paid someone for it.

 

[crazy_davey]

It wouldn't reflect poorly on the Yukon at all, it would reflect poorly on the outfitter. Nobody, including the hunter, should benefit from an animal that was illegally harvested.



The outfitter should have to reimburse the hunter 100% for all expenses that the hunter incurred to go on the hunt, but no illegally taken trophies should be kept by hunters.

This is no different than buying property from someone that obtained that property illegally. You don't get to keep the illegally obtained property, just because you paid someone for it.

I fully agree SJ.

 

[bearkilr]

It wouldn't reflect poorly on the Yukon at all, it would reflect poorly on the outfitter. Nobody, including the hunter, should benefit from an animal that was illegally harvested.



The outfitter should have to reimburse the hunter 100% for all expenses that the hunter incurred to go on the hunt, but no illegally taken trophies should be kept by hunters.

This is no different than buying property from someone that obtained that property illegally. You don't get to keep the illegally obtained property, just because you paid someone for it.

What purpose would it serve to punish the hunters?
News would hit Internet forums in the U.S. and the story gets twisted and convoluted. We all know how that works, no?

 

[Ardent]

It wouldn't reflect poorly on the Yukon at all, it would reflect poorly on the outfitter. Nobody, including the hunter, should benefit from an animal that was illegally harvested.



The outfitter should have to reimburse the hunter 100% for all expenses that the hunter incurred to go on the hunt, but no illegally taken trophies should be kept by hunters.

This is no different than buying property from someone that obtained that property illegally. You don't get to keep the illegally obtained property, just because you paid someone for it.

I hope you always wear full trousers when visiting state attractions in Mexico, and do not swear in public- there are a million better examples but both of those are illegal there and few know it. The reality is the outfitter could not refund the money even if they wanted to, they are already out the expenses, and won't have the cash in hand. The hunters would take the fall for a mistake that wasn't theirs, did not remove any sheep from the population not already allocated to hunting, and in this case likely through an honest mistake on the guide's part- at least the CO's believe that and have more info than we do, in spades. The guide also incriminated himself apparently without knowing so by honestly filling out his paperwork he hand delivered, and then answering the questions honestly. Crucifying the hunters over this seems completely out of proportion and the Yukon government, who have more information than any of us here swirling guesses, agrees.

 

[stubblejumper]

The reality is the outfitter could not refund the money even if they wanted to, they are already out the expenses, and won't have the cash in hand.

The outfitter made the mistake, so the outfitter should pay all related expenses. He can use the profits from his other hunts to come up with the money. If he can't come up with the cash, then seize and liquidate some of his assets to pay the hunters.

 

[medvedqc]

Considering the population wasn't threatened in any way, I find this absurd and ridiculous. Consider the typical client isn't the super wealthy fat cat most picture, but actually the guy who's saved for years, ticked off his wife, and finally booked the hunt and has to trust his guide knows all the ins and outs. You really feel it's appropriate to confiscate their sheep they paid fifty grand to hunt through an error that was no fault of their own? Glad you're not in government! Sheep was in season, the animals were legal shooters, but on the wrong side of a division the guide made no attempt to hide- it's very likely he screwed up and he's paid the piper. So, does anyone know how the fine applies in the Yukon? Did the guide take the hit, or the outfitter? Here in BC it would likely be the guide, as he was the one who physically went into the wrong area, the outiftter very likely wasn't even aware. In that case a good guide earns $300 a day plus tips, and this fine would have hurt something serious. I'm not sure if this was discussed earlier and I've forgotten, this thread has wound a bit.

the fines were for the outfitter and for the guide each of them had to pay. because each of them were there illegally guiding for the time given.

what i already said about that case is that we do not know what happens there for sure but i rely on one thing he was caught and plead guilty what the newspaper said is not what the YG press release said nor what i ve seen on the court papers ... and the other fact known is the outfitter went before his season in that place.

i do not think even the Gvt of Yukon is fully aware of the sheep situation there for now.

when you take an animal out of season this is poaching at least for the mortal. i repeat it was not in season for the outfitter that started the 1st of September, sheeps taken the 14th of august.


this is not the first time for sure that a client lost his trophies due to GO or guide misconduct. we the locals are surprised by the actions made on that case.

we have one tag available in Kluane reserve opens for the locals the 1st of August if drawn the non resident that buy his tag can go the 15 th of July, even if not drawn why not going there it s open season?

and again that specific outfitter had already issues in the past so not really someone that made mistakes ...

 

[crazy_davey]

Consider the typical client isn't the super wealthy fat cat most picture, but actually the guy who's saved for years, ticked off his wife, and finally booked the hunt and has to trust his guide knows all the ins and outs. You really feel it's appropriate to confiscate their sheep they paid fifty grand to hunt through an error that was no fault of their own?

Sorry Ardent, you are wrong again and obviously don't know sheep hunting very well. If you think it is your average guy spending $25-$40,000 on a single sheep hunt you are out to lunch. There are very few average income guys who can afford a hunt like that. Yes, there are a few who save and make it happen but if you think guided sheep hunts are mostly blue collar guys spending their nickel and dime savings bank, you are wrong again.

I am sorry that you chose to enter a venture that you figure you might bring home 10% from a bear hunt a year and some goat tags. Sounds like you need to come up with a better idea to me. I like your style but don't quit your day job anytime soon...

Guiding for sheep is a big dollar business, it is not your typical whitetail or black bear hunt for a few grand. Have a good look at the annual Wild Sheep Foundation sheep show in Reno and tell me it is an average guys convention. Diamonds and fur coats brother, have a very good look. It is all about big dollars, period. If you think it is about a bunch of average guys having a few beers and discussing conservation and well being of our sheep populations you are very wrong.

So for the hunts in question I say, yes, they loose their sheep and get money back from the outfitter that they trusted. If the money cant be returned, they sue. Those sheep were taken illegally, period. Try and make it out like a simple mistake, there is way more to it than that. Anyone who has outfitted knows darn well the areas they are supposed to be in and at what times...

If they are allowed to keep the sheep what is to stop outfitter's from doing the same in the future? Pay a small fine in relation to the cost of the hunt and be back out there the very next season guiding again.

I have absolutely no problem with outfitter's, my life evolved mostly around hunting, guiding and outfitting. But rules must be followed. These hunts in question where done illegally with the outfitter knowing damn well what was going on. Try and play it anyway you can but it was not a simple mistake.

 

[MackForce]

Just to add, that non-resident sheep hunt in Kluane auctions off each year for a higher price. Last year it went for over $300,000 according the CO I spoke to last week. Sheep hunters pay big bucks it seems.

 

[Ardent]

I like you Davey and this is one of those terribly divisive threads that makes decent people irritated by each other for years, I don't want to go there. No, I've made the right call for my family thanks and we're very happy, you can also withhold your judgement unless it's making you feel better to suggest you know better and we don't have a clue. I've read your remarks a couple times this morning and it's the only way they read. We can talk big dollar stone sheep until we're blue in the face, the dalls and bighorn I'm not in the circle admittedly, and I have to say with complete frankness you're wrong on your average client.

The newspapers love to run cartoons of a fat American shooting hundred dollar bills through a sheep. The reality is these guys certainly exist, but your typical client is an electrician who built a company from the ground up and it was his dream for a decade to get to northern BC or the Yukon. I would be very comfortable calling successful average joes 60% of the mix, people that anyone here would be happy to talk to, half the remainder are the very wealthy folks here would still enjoy, and the last 20% elitist bags even the people paid by them don't enjoy.

There seems an instant assumption anyone using an outfitter on a big name spiecies is a vile dirtbag who smokes cigars, has a wife thirty years younger, and only cares about shooting a list to impress his friends with heads on the wall- those types are exceedingly rare. There is also a very unhealthy and bitter assumption that outfitters apparently don't have expenses, and make nearly all profit, especially in top sheep operations. The poor fellow that I grilled non stop while getting into the industry runs a $3 million dollar stone sheep operation, and guides one of your fat cats Steve Hornady as a return client (a very good guy, who happens to have done well). Shortly I presume you're going to now tell me he's a terrible outiftter as well as I share the no BS numbers. After expenses he's lucky to make $100,000 on his $3 million area. Decent money but not what most anticipate, nor is it a return that shines in the investment industry.

Maybe things are vastly different in the Yukon. But here in northern BC it is not a license to print money, the clients aren't the bad guy from a cartoon, and I've yet to meet an outfitter who got into it because he thought it was his best business opportunity. In the end the Yukon made their call on much better information than we have in this case. All we do know is the guide reported honestly on where the sheep was taken, was in the wrong, and the clients would have had no idea. It's too bad we feel the need to personally attack each other over our vantage points on the subject.

 

[Ardent]

Angus, ya never know, if I ever do take up a guided hunt or go with an outfitter, I'll surely be in touch
Personally, a few years ago I was offered the chance to get into an outfitting business at the entry level. I'd make a damn fine camp cook too. I've been a hardcore mostly self taught fisherman and hunter for most of my life , tho most of my personal trophy exploits have had fins.
sadly, with my outspoken nature , I burned those bridges over some differences of opinion and a couple loose teeth , which weren't mine.
I'm taking up gold prospecting hahaha probably less than 10% return but hell it'll be adventure.
The wife and I have been getting the itch to go north from the Cariboo and I believe within 2 years we will be in the Yukon....... just haven't found my "happy" place yet
I'd love to be a hunting guide or part of a guiding crew, would be an adventure more valuable than the paycheck but I'm afraid my can't shut the hell up nature would go against the grain with BC's guide outfitter association and most of it's members LOL

Just finding our happy place too, I'd like to give those who think a good area and quota is a license to print money a crack. It's a lot like commercial fishing, a few very big guys make money, the large middle ground makes a living but it's not easy, and the quota is ridiculously overpriced for the return you can get on it as its a legacy industry. Small scale gold mining is the same deal, but we only get one crack at this life, right?

 

[Neilm]

I have to agree with Ardent on this one. I guided for 20 years in the Territories and probably 75% of the hunters were guys that saved for 2 or 3 years for a hunt. Mind you it was not for sheep. My nephew went on a sheep hunt a few years ago and he has a young family and is still paying off that hunt before he goes on his next hunt. Sure there are some high rollers but most are guys that dreamed of a specific hunt for a few years and finally put it together

Neil

 

[Ardent]

Indeed and thanks Neil. Everyone pictures what's been mentioned in this thread, fur coats diamonds and cigars, and those are actually exceedingly rare. Just how "regular" your average stone sheep or brown bear hunter can be would throw a lot of people's perceptions way off. Many here would be taken aback they're actually people they'd enjoy talking to, as well.

 

[bearkilr]

I would say most sheep hunters are obviously somewhat well off or else they wouldn't be able to spend $30-$40,000 on a pleasure trip. That said most of the stories I hear are of guys that made their money through some sort of entrepreneurial business venture rather than your typical corporate CEO fat cat in a suit smoking a cigar.
No doubt there are some of those too but the physical aspect of sheep hunting kind of prohibits them from having any sort of an enjoyable trip.

 

[medvedqc]

Bearkilr and Angus,

you are right but nowadays orv bring hunters very close to the sheep.

i ve seen hunters sparing lifetime for a hunt and some still paying for those hunts but i ve seen too people that are really rich and that is how the world is and no problem too.


but the Reno convention or show is not for the small guys as Crazy Davey said they are not taking a beer around the table to chat conservation ...

back to one point this is not outfitters against local hunters but as in BC and other juridictions that first choice the local hunters and then if there is room or enough specy opening for the outfitters then proceed not what is happening for sure. the locals are worried really about that area and it was even before that outfitter starting his operations.
there is some bad apples in any job and this is one as i said this is not the first time that guy has done the things the wrong way how many times we need a story from him ...?

Angus and this is for you as you seems to defend at any cost that outfitter. the Yukon outfitters association is not even talking about that case, it is not because a newspaper is giving their version that this is the truth.

Yukon Governement did that release and they didnt even give the right location.

MEDIA ADVISORY
Results of Wildlife Act charges heard in court April 7th
(April 15, 2015) – Territorial Justice of the Peace Morrison-Harvey has ordered a Yukon
outfitter to pay a total of $11,500 -- $10,000 into the Yukon Turn In Poachers (TIPPs)
fund and an additional $1,500 surcharge -- following a guilty plea to two counts under the
Wildlife Act arising from two sheep hunts conducted last August near Whitehorse.
The offenses were hunting when not permitted and outfitter providing a guide when not
authorized. The incidents took place in Game Management Zone 7-23 near Rose
Mountain on August 14th, 2014.
The outfitter was not allowed to provide outfitted hunts in that subzone until August 31st
of that year. He explained that he had confused this subzone with subzone 7-25 in which
he was permitted to hunt but did not hunt during that time. The Justice of the Peace took
into account a joint submission from Crown and defence and the fact that the accused
pleaded guilty at the very first appearance.
Conservation Officers remind the public that Wildlife Act and Environment Act violations
can be reported confidentially at any time to the TIPP line (1-800-661-0525) or
www.env.gov.yk.ca/tipp.

he was caught, not reported the wrong way sorry, and plead guilty on a very good bargain end of the story

and i will finish on that to explain what discussions can do: being friend. on of my background is french from France and there they like heated discussions with even sometimes really fights not only words but at the end friends we stay.

enjoy your day all of you guys.

Phil

 

[crazy_davey]

I sent a PM to Ardent apologizing for my comments toward his choice to venture into the outfitting game. Those comments were uncalled for and not adding anything to the thread, taking away from the real issue here.

 

[medvedqc]

Just to add, that non-resident sheep hunt in Kluane auctions off each year for a higher price. Last year it went for over $300,000 according the CO I spoke to last week. Sheep hunters pay big bucks it seems.

it was 105k usd ... the number that he mentionned was many many years ago.
http://w w w .liveauctionworld.com/KLUANE-FIRST-NATION-DALL-S-SHEEP-PERMIT_i21233450