Anschutz 64R Tactical Trainer 64R AND 64MPR

I don't doubt that you can shoot. I was trying to say that sometimes some rifles are a little more temperamental than others and as result are a little more difficult shoot consistently.

I give as an example a rifle that has been proving a little more challenging to shoot as I would like. It will put a number of shots very close to the same place and then, seemingly inexplicably, another round or two will go where I'm not aiming. I think the problem I'm experiencing as a rifle that is very hold sensitive. I don't think it is an ammo problem at all.

Some rifles are "easy" to shoot well; others are not necessarily so.

Here are a few targets from the past couple of weeks that illustrate what I'm saying.





 
grauhanen said:
I don't doubt that you can shoot. I was trying to say that sometimes some rifles are a little more temperamental than others and as result are a little more difficult shoot consistently.

I give as an example a rifle that has been proving a little more challenging to shoot as I would like. It will put a number of shots very close to the same place and then, seemingly inexplicably, another round or two will go where I'm not aiming. I think the problem I'm experiencing as a rifle that is very hold sensitive. I don't think it is an ammo problem at all.

Some rifles are "easy" to shoot well; others are not necessarily so.

Here are a few targets from the past couple of weeks that illustrate what I'm saying.
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Ahhh I see what you mean now!

Yes, I found that the more I "wrap" my thumb the less it seems to do it. When I hold it behind the bolt it seems to do this more. Well, maybe I have... Im not sure!

It is a little frustrating because I thought I would have easily smoked the 1/2 moa at 50 by now but I cant seem to get a consistent grouping! lmfao!
 
Reads as the barrel being out of tune with the ammo to me, for both of ya, canadiankeeper and grauhanen. Keep lot testing, or schtick a tuner on the end of the barrel.

I've shown this target here and there, but here's SK +, Rifle Match, Center-X and Midas + shot through a bare barrel. My chronograph says extreme spread and standard deviation numbers for the ammo are very close, average velocity is different between them all however. It's amazing how the consistency comes right in with Midas +, seen this several times, other ammo shoots junky then Midas saves the day. Not a matter of "hold sensitivity" here at all, and that's with a lightweight sporter.



Playing around with a tuner I was able to get the SK ammo to group much better, but more weight might be needed on it to really dial it in. Not sure how much more I'll experiment with it on my XXII, since the tuner is going on a different rifle permanently in just a few weeks.



Anyway, that's my take, just a couple of ammo picky rifles :)
 
Thanks! Im going to try the ELEY Team...

I may see if the LGS is getting any more box's of 50 of eley match in.. Id rather not order a brick if it doesn't shoot well...

I may order a brick of Midas+ from nordic this week
 
RabidM4U5 said:
Reads as the barrel being out of tune with the ammo to me, for both of ya, canadiankeeper and grauhanen. Keep lot testing, or schtick a tuner on the end of the barrel.

I've shown this target here and there, but here's SK +, Rifle Match, Center-X and Midas + shot through a bare barrel. My chronograph says extreme spread and standard deviation numbers for the ammo are very close, average velocity is different between them all however. It's amazing how the consistency comes right in with Midas +, seen this several times, other ammo shoots junky then Midas saves the day. Not a matter of "hold sensitivity" here at all, and that's with a lightweight sporter.

Playing around with a tuner I was able to get the SK ammo to group much better, but more weight might be needed on it to really dial it in. Not sure how much more I'll experiment with it on my XXII, since the tuner is going on a different rifle permanently in just a few weeks.



Anyway, that's my take, just a couple of ammo picky rifles :)
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Better results with Midas ammo should be expected as it costs more than the other stuff and has a record of being better ammo. Of course, there's no rule that says better ammo must produce better results.

It's nigh impossible to tell from the results above that there is no issue with hold sensitivity, which can be addressed best by using the shooting technique (hold, shoulder and grip pressure, placement on the rests, among other factors) most in tune with the rifle. Any explanation of results that takes the shooter out of the equation is incomplete at best. There is no guarantee that two shooters will get the same results from the same rifle. Technique is always at play and few of us can reasonably claim to have it mastered and always consistently at hand.

The single sample size of results from each tuner setting hardly inspires confidence that they are consistent. It's akin to shooting one group and from it passing judgment on the results and moving on to the next tuner setting and group.

More significantly, it begs the question about whether its the fault of the barrel being out of tune with the ammo when no rifle's target results posted on this thread have consistently good results. In any case, this discussion threatens to take the OP's thread astray.
 
Canadiankeeper said:
Thanks! Im going to try the ELEY Team...

I may see if the LGS is getting any more box's of 50 of eley match in.. Id rather not order a brick if it doesn't shoot well...

I may order a brick of Midas+ from nordic this week
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If you are going to test Eley Team and Match I suggest you get two boxes of each. One lower velocity (1040ish) and a higher velocity (1070ish) if they are available.
 
^^ Haha, yep. It's funny when you know a rifle should shoot better but the target results are crappy because it simply doesn't like what you're feeding it.

grauhanen said:
It's nigh impossible to tell from the results above that there is no issue with hold sensitivity, Very easy to tell, ammo not in tune with the rifle shot poorly, ammo in tune with the rifle gave expected results. Any explanation of results that takes the shooter out of the equation is incomplete at best. Any explanation focused solely on the shooter is likewise equally incomplete, perhaps more so. Observing gross dispersion around 1" at 50 yards, especially split groups that are tight when considered separately, is a clear indication to me of something being out of tune and the shooter is not a significant factor in that.

The single sample size of results from each tuner setting hardly inspires confidence that they are consistent. It's akin to shooting one group and from it passing judgment on the results and moving on to the next tuner setting and group. Then you have missed the big picture, which is that average group size with the tuner was about half that of the bare barrel. Even rolling through many tuner settings, groups averaged in the 0.2's to 0.5's compared to high 0.6's to 1" without the tuner. It clearly demonstrates how much gross dispersion can be caused by ammo that is simply not in tune with the barrel, even if the ammo is fairly consistent in it's velocity. Because the ammo is consistent in velocity, the rifle can be tuned to shoot it better.

More significantly, it begs the question about whether its the fault of the barrel being out of tune with the ammo when no rifle's target results posted on this thread have consistently good results. No rimfire ammunition manufacturer consistently produces consistent ammo :d No rifle shoots different lots of a certain brand and type the same. Rimfires are extremely sensitive to "tune". As such, Canadiankeeper has much ammo testing to do as his new rifle appears to be one of those "picky" ones.
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Canadiankeeper said:
Thanks! Im going to try the ELEY Team...

I may see if the LGS is getting any more box's of 50 of eley match in.. Id rather not order a brick if it doesn't shoot well...

I may order a brick of Midas+ from nordic this week
Click to expand...

Your better off getting one of the high end sample Bricks from Tesro. It will cost about the same but you get 5 different brands of high end ammo to try. I've never had any luck with the midas +I bought a brick last year and everything I've tried it in has been a huge disappointment as center x always works better.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
^^ Haha, yep. It's funny when you know a rifle should shoot better but the target results are crappy because it simply doesn't like what you're feeding it.
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Rabid, have any of your rifles, with any combination of ammo, barrels, or tuner, shot consistently small groups? I don't mean that as a criticism of your shooting but simply as a question of whether any mix of the factors you've identified -- ammo, barrel, tuner -- produced the results you seek, that is .2's and better.
 
Since December, I haven't done a whole lot of 50 yard shooting, I'm usually at the 100yard line now. When I have been at 50, I've identified 3 ammo types that should shoot .3's or better, Midas + has been consistent .2's and .3's after getting through the "break - in" period of 500 rounds. RWS R-100 and Lapua X-Act showed potential to give this performance at 50 yards as well, but again I haven't re-tested them at 50 yards since when taken to 100 only Midas retained a more consistent performance.

My XXII is currently my only functional .22 LR, barrels for the builds are on the way, so I have no further comment as other rifles/barrels I own have been great disappointments. I hope to have an answer for that in the coming months.
 
Ck, thats a nice looking Annie you got there and the targets or ''down the rabbit hole as you say'' is addicting to say the least ;)
On a serious note , save the timmies for after a day of shooting.
I am an informal .22 shooter who is happy with his accuracy with plain vanilla AE Hollow points for shooting gophers and shooting dimes and nickles at ranges of 20 to 50 yrds in the gravel pit.

We found that drinking coffee while at the range caused enough jitters to affect consistent positive results...this is all informal deduction on my part and shooting buddies opinions.

It does play a part in the misses is all I am suggesting.

From CZ to an Annie, thats a big jump and thanks for sharing.
Rob
 
savagecanuck said:
Your better off getting one of the high end sample Bricks from Tesro. It will cost about the same but you get 5 different brands of high end ammo to try. I've never had any luck with the midas +I bought a brick last year and everything I've tried it in has been a huge disappointment as center x always works better.
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This is what I heard a lot so I went with a brick of center x and it just throws them randomly... Will layer a few right in the same hole then throw two down into a different hole... You can see it in the pic! Its so confusing! lol

FLHTCUI said:
Ck, thats a nice looking Annie you got there and the targets or ''down the rabbit hole as you say'' is addicting to say the least ;)
On a serious note , save the timmies for after a day of shooting.
I am an informal .22 shooter who is happy with his accuracy with plain vanilla AE Hollow points for shooting gophers and shooting dimes and nickles at ranges of 20 to 50 yrds in the gravel pit.

We found that drinking coffee while at the range caused enough jitters to affect consistent positive results...this is all informal deduction on my part and shooting buddies opinions.

It does play a part in the misses is all I am suggesting.

From CZ to an Annie, thats a big jump and thanks for sharing.
Rob
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You good sir, underestimate the caffeine addiction I have. I blame the pre workout I used to take (I dont take any now as im trying to kick the addiction)... 2 coffee's a day(on a work day... 4 on a day off), plus a pre work out before the gym... I went 4 days without caffeine about a week ago... Dear god the headache I got was ridiculous... Every damn day... Trying to just have one coffee a day now and no pre workout.
 
Haha, I know the feeling, that's why I've gone to custom builds. I'm at the 2 month mark on the 2-3 month wait on my barrel being imported, wish there was better tracking on it, there's just no update until it crosses into Canada. Playing the accuracy lottery with factory rifles has been bad enough for me, never mind fighting with a good barrel that's just picky. Last year I bought a brick of pretty much every match ammo under the sun, still have over half left of most of them. 13 ammos tried... 3 contenders, 1 shining star. You should be able to tell after 5 groups if the ammo has a chance or not. Looking good? Shoot the full box to confirm, still inconsistent? Cut losses and save the ammo for another rifle.

Tried any of the Eley yet? How about RWS?
 
What happened to the very encouraging results initially posted in this thread? Some very good groups were shown.

It seems hard to believe that an Anschutz will shoot only a very few varieties of ammo well enough to be considered sufficiently accurate. In my experience with my own Anschutz rifles, they have all shot satisfactorily with SK Standard Plus. When I've tried other ammo such as SK Rifle Match, Center X, Midas +, and RWS Rifle Match they have shot as well or better. To put it simply, I don't think the problem is finding the magic bullet.

Should you experience results that are not as good as shown in the first post, perhaps it is necessary to eliminate some potential problems. I don't want to sound patronizing, but sometimes I wish I had saved some ammo and money and followed what in hindsight seems like plain common sense. There are many factors that are easily forgotten, lost, or ignored when trying to overcome a trying problem like figuring out why a rifle does not perform as expected.

Check the scope and mounts. If you have another scope, give it a try. Check the action screw torque. You might consider changing it by starting at about 18 inch pounds, shooting a number of groups, and then tightening up a bit to say, 22 in. lbs, and shooting and on up to about 30 in lbs. Clean the bore between trying different ammo. If you can get a front rest rather than a bag, see if that helps. Try various holds on the rifle. Some rifles need a firmer grip, others respond better to a lighter grip. Remember to follow through with each shot.
 
grauhanen said:
It seems hard to believe that an Anschutz will shoot only a very few varieties of ammo well enough to be considered sufficiently accurate. In my experience with my own Anschutz rifles, they have all shot satisfactorily with SK Standard Plus. When I've tried other ammo such as SK Rifle Match, Center X, Midas +, and RWS Rifle Match they have shot as well or better. To put it simply, I don't think the problem is finding the magic bullet.
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Do you dismiss my experience? Glenn, I'll be honest, I'm quite astounded that even with the new "good" barrel my XXII is super picky about the loads it shoots well, but shoot well it does with that "magic bullet". I would say my (now sold) Savage MKII shot more loads better than my XXII does, but the XXII with it's "pet" load is more consistent/accurate than the Savage was with any load (at 50 yards). I only had one day and limited data with the tuner on the XXII, but initial results show that it is largely a matter of "tune" for this rifle to shoot accurately, and I still have two weights to be added to the tuner, either individually, or together, for three more possible combinations of weight settings for 500 tuner settings. Methinks me needs a case of SK ammo to test this... Oh and if you happen to peruse the RFC 100 yard challenge, two months in a row I haven't posted results with the XXII, and my new 455 Full Stock .17 HMR has outperformed it significantly, despite no match grade ammo offerings available. It is befuddling, between the two the 455 FS is much more difficult to hold and shoot consistently on the bench... yet target results do not reflect this condition to any appreciable degree. Sadly, this year I do not have the luxury of time that I enjoyed last year, nor will I for the foreseeable future, otherwise I'd have some more results with the tuner.

But, tossing chasing bugholes aside, I used my XXII in silhouette competition last month and with Eley Sport (0.3-0.6" groups at 50 yards) I shot some of my best scores to date with this rifle, superior results to the OEM barrel, it was matching what I did with my stock 64 MSR. Thankfully, silhouette is more of a game of "shooter ability" than absolute precision of the rifle ;)

That aside, the rest of your post is correct, there is a mind boggling list of things to check and sort out when chasing down an accuracy issue, once all of these things have been squared away and you've tried all the available ammo, there are really only two options remaining: You have a dud barrel, or, your shooting skills are inadequate.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
Do you dismiss my experience? Glenn, I'll be honest, I'm quite astounded that even with the new "good" barrel my XXII is super picky about the loads it shoots well, but shoot well it does with that "magic bullet". I would say my (now sold) Savage MKII shot more loads better than my XXII does, but the XXII with it's "pet" load is more consistent/accurate than the Savage was with any load (at 50 yards). I only had one day and limited data with the tuner on the XXII, but initial results show that it is largely a matter of "tune" for this rifle to shoot accurately, and I still have two weights to be added to the tuner, either individually, or together, for three more possible combinations of weight settings for 500 tuner settings. Methinks me needs a case of SK ammo to test this... Oh and if you happen to peruse the RFC 100 yard challenge, two months in a row I haven't posted results with the XXII, and my new 455 Full Stock .17 HMR has outperformed it significantly, despite no match grade ammo offerings available. It is befuddling, between the two the 455 FS is much more difficult to hold and shoot consistently on the bench... yet target results do not reflect this condition to any appreciable degree. Sadly, this year I do not have the luxury of time that I enjoyed last year, nor will I for the foreseeable future, otherwise I'd have some more results with the tuner.

But, tossing chasing bugholes aside, I used my XXII in silhouette competition last month and with Eley Sport (0.3-0.6" groups at 50 yards) I shot some of my best scores to date with this rifle, superior results to the OEM barrel, it was matching what I did with my stock 64 MSR. Thankfully, silhouette is more of a game of "shooter ability" than absolute precision of the rifle ;)

That aside, the rest of your post is correct, there is a mind boggling list of things to check and sort out when chasing down an accuracy issue, once all of these things have been squared away and you've tried all the available ammo, there are really only two options remaining: You have a dud barrel, or, your shooting skills are inadequate.
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Myke, my comments were addressed with regard to the OP and they reflected my own experience with my Anschutz rifles -- that is, all the ones that I have had. I'm saying that I've found my Anschutz rifles to be relatively unfussy with match quality ammo. If decent ammo was used they performed decently -- all of them, including 64 actions and a Flobert II.

There is, indeed, a mind boggling host of factors to keep in mind and under control when trying to get the best results from a rifle. It can be very difficult to take all into account all the time. Generally speaking, few shooters have the temerity to claim to have that ability, and fewer still can actually do it. It is multi-tasking at a high level that doesn't come easily to a lot of people without a great deal of practice and training. I think most people, myself included, would admit that often this is a challenge to meet; inconsistent results can be attributed to the difficulty of keeping everything under control all of the time.

Of course there remains the possibility that the barrel is a dud, and that the results shown in the first post were misleading about of the rifle's potential.
 
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