Are the Norinco M14 bolts too soft?

speaking on the subject of Bell distributors...... I have dealt with this company for many years as a sporting goods retail manager/buyer. I am no longer in this field but..... Bell has been offering wholesale buys on norinco rifles, shotguns and other firearms to the sporting goods market in Canada for a number of years. Where these come from ... direct from china or from marstar is not something i can speculate on. The last wholesale offering I received was Dec through march 07. I won't mention the wholesale price hehehehe so don't ask ;) I just wish the retailer I was employed for would have allowed me to stock the store with m14 rifles..... we had the permits to do so..... they just didn't want the hassle :(

I have bought rifles from Dark.... headspace average 9 to 13 thou over .308 go. no cosmo, fit and finish excellent..... has become my "keeper" of the MANY of these I have bought.... traded... sold... torn apart put back together ect ect :D

I have bought 2 that were imported through marstar but from another dealer ... both required new bolts for me to happy with them..... G.I. bolts with gentle lapping dropped right in to 1.630 and i added a thou in lapping to bring it to a precise 1.631 my preference for a semi auto .308 chamber

I have a Century Arms import I was rambling on about a month ago..... nicest M14s I have owned. Right out of the box , all critical areas guage within specs, all parts machined correct. Hardness estimated at "no issues" :D AND the rifle headspaced bang on 1.6345 meaning it will close on .308 no go with slight drag .... but comes snug on a 7.62nato go .


if i could see that in a new m14s (1.635 headspace)...... i would pay MORE than 399.00 a rifle.... make it a cool 500.00 I'd be all in for 10 :D

regardless of all the QC questions and hardness queries..... and is my rifle okay to shoot .308 win questions.......

How many of these rifles are in canada anyways?? no doubt thousands..... theres prolly one being shot at a range in canada every single day...... seen any headlines reading "man hospitalized by shooting a chinese made m14s" ...... surely by now.... news would reach us...... so far..... this rifles track record is pretty dam good...... and gawd damn thier fun :D :D

I don't care who imports them so long as they keep it up at a competitive price. It's a rifle average jo can afford..... and it's a rifle that is easy enough for average joe to maintain. What I would like to see is MORE CHINESE SPEC PARTS AND ACCESSORIES ...... rant mode off :D :D
 
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johnone said:
FIRE & OTHERS:
I will attempt to explain this AGAIN....
Just because other importers received rifles in 2007 DOES NOT mean that they ordered or purchased them in that year.... They may have been ordered as much as a year prior to shipping....
It is entirely likely that shipments received by an importer in early 2007 were in fact spoken for in early to mid 2006.
John
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I understand that John, I was just curious about the rifle and where it came from. Since you have no idea who I bought it from you have absolutley no idea who imported it. You really have to learn to relax. I know you have had people slagging your buisness but I have not been one of them. I have bought three of these rifles in the last month and I know two of them came direct from you so I have no problem buying these rifles as they are.

PS how much for the real M14's.
 
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FIRE;
Dependig on what you want in an M-14....
For those in Canada between $1,800. & $2,500.

For those I have off shore, in lots of 500 you are looking at $275.oo FOB warehouse.

JOhn
 
johnone said:
FIRE;
Dependig on what you want in an M-14....
For those in Canada between $1,800. & $2,500.

For those I have off shore, in lots of 500 you are looking at $275.oo FOB warehouse.

JOhn
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in lots of 500 offshore for 275.00 FOB ..... you still talkin rincos here or you talking "real" m14 rifles??? either way.... that's actually a pretty sweet deal... lotsa wiggle room for a bit of margin. Anyone wanna go in on a few hunfred rifles :D
 
johnone said:
LAZERUS 2000;
"2.] "did not show that the headspace was .010 thou greater than 7.62 NATO GO .... which is .010" greater than SAMMI specs for .308 Win NO GO on NEW .308 Win rifles. "
WHO measured this ? do they have proper instruments for 7.62 nato automatic weapons.... I was not aware that nybody outside our military had these instruments in Canada, I would appreciate knowing the individual's name so we can make use of him ....
"
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While it is not me who measured Lazerus2000's rifles, I do have a set of clymer gauges ground in 1 thou increments from 2.630 all the way up to 2.655. When originally ordering the gauges, I had asked for a set of 7.62 NATO GO, NOGO, and FIELD gauges however they refused on the premise that there were too many different standards out there and therefore they would not stamp their name on a set. When re-phrasing the question to "ok...how about a graduated set in 1 thou increments from .308 go all the way up to 2.655" they said "no problem...you'll have them in a couple weeks". There is no magic to measuring headspace, however there does seem to be some information coveting going on with respect to what the standard is. Since you are only ever interested in facts; I have over a dozen M14s rifles; about half of which I can confirm as having been imported by you, the rest of less certain origin. Their headspace varies greatly, albeit all initially gauged on the monster long side as relating to .308 SAMMI specs and some quite a bit longer than what I believe 7.62NATO field (1.6455) to be. The quality control issue appears to be with the bolts as a quick changeover to a TRW bolt usually results in headspacing with a chinese barrel right on 1.630 .308 SAMMI GO or about 1 thou tighter.

I get tired of johnone ranting up and down about how no one outside his top secret circle of uber-armorers understands enough about these rifles to challenge his iron-clad quality control specs which, IMHO, are wanting somewhat in relation to how he represents the condition of these rifles (The exception here is Hungry who's enthusiasm has sold more of these rifles for marstar than I can imagine and who is a very knowledgable guy in the world of the M14). He makes claims about his quality control then states that no one in Canada is equipped (and implies qualified) to verify his quality control. Pretty convenient. I'd have alot more respect for him if he would either simply admit the Chinese screw up every once in a while or to come clean with respect to what his headspace "quality control" standards are in a meaningful way that we can check ourselves.

Relating to "value", I happily buck up the 400 or 500 bones these rifles command but know that for me to be satisfied they're safe will require work, which I am more than happy to do. Anyway....rant mode off. I love my M14 and am grateful for the work that's gone into making these great rifles available in canada.

Brobee
 
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BROBEE;
OH MY, please do not take my comments as a personal attack on you or anyone else on CGN....
As for measuring the headspace on any automatic weapon I would respectfully suggest that you consult an expert out there....
I would mention that I have two original M-14s, one is a TRW which is supposed to be the "top of the line" when it comes to these military rifles, yet according to commercial standards it is .006 over spec.... I have shot this rifle on a regulare basis for over 25 years, is capable of much better accuracy than this old shooter.... have never had a problem.

"I get tired of johnone ranting up and down about how no one outside his top secret circle of uber-armorers .........."
I think there is some confusion here, YES we do have an iron clad warranty policy, even though it does not make specific mention of any one issue in particular (ie; headspace) we do state and honor our written terms, if you don't like it or you are not satisfied, simply return the item for a full refund.. It Is that simple....

"He makes claims about his quality control then states that no one in Canada is equipped (and implies qualified) to verify his quality control
Once more I feel that you have not understood, or perhaps I was not clear, in my comments I was referrring to the head space issue, NOT quality control issues in general.... ANd I repeat, I do not know if any person outside the military who owns the instruments for correctly measureing the headspace on .762 Nato automatic weapons.... If there is I will gladly stand corrected....

"simply admit the Chinese screw up every once in a while"
If you check my many postings you will quickly determine that we never hide from our customers, ask a question you will get an answer.... On many occasions we have admitted to errors being mad by overseas suppliers, taht is why Marstar implemented our ironclad wararnty policy many years ago.... How many other dealers have done this to protect the consumer ??

" or to come clean with respect to what his headspace "quality control" standards are in a meaningful way that we can check ourselves."
Please tell me how you want this done ??
Would you like to visit the workshop ?? We are just completing the last lot of M-14s for the next container....

I hope I haven't further agrevated the situation by further replying to your concerns ?

John
 
45ACPKING said:
in lots of 500 offshore for 275.00 FOB ..... you still talkin rincos here or you talking "real" m14 rifles??? either way.... that's actually a pretty sweet deal... lotsa wiggle room for a bit of margin. Anyone wanna go in on a few hunfred rifles :D
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At that price for a USGI M14 I'd be up for a few. Only problem is they'd have to come as parts only cause I am unlucky enough to have started collecting firearms to late :D
 
johnone said:
As for measuring the headspace on any automatic weapon I would respectfully suggest that you consult an expert out there....
I would mention that I have two original M-14s, one is a TRW which is supposed to be the "top of the line" when it comes to these military rifles, yet according to commercial standards it is .006 over spec.... I have shot this rifle on a regulare basis for over 25 years, is capable of much better accuracy than this old shooter.... have never had a problem.
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As far as I'm concerned, measuring headspace is not rocket science. As indicated, I have gauges in 1 thou increments from 1.630 SAMMI spec all the way up to 1.655. Your original TRW measures 0.006 longer than SAMMI spec; so if you're refering to .308 NOGO (1.634) this would be 1.640 and if you're referring to .308 FIELD (1.638) this would be 1.644. Either of these two would still be under what I understand the 7.62 NATO FIELD REJECT measurement of 1.6455 to be. The point I'm making is that in some of the new rifles supplied marstar, a stripped bolt will close on clymer gauges longer than 1.646 (The longest I've seen was 1.651).

"I get tired of johnone ranting up and down about how no one outside his top secret circle of uber-armorers .........."
I think there is some confusion here, YES we do have an iron clad warranty policy, even though it does not make specific mention of any one issue in particular (ie; headspace) we do state and honor our written terms, if you don't like it or you are not satisfied, simply return the item for a full refund.. It Is that simple....
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My issue is with you stating these rifles have passed quality control which should include a headspace standard (which you won't tell us what it is....just repeated suggestions we go talk to some "knowledgable expert". Never anything as helpful as a statement as to what the standard is or why measuring it with a custom clymer gauge is insufficient. Is the standard 1.6455 FIELD reject with the same shoulder geometry (ie: angle) as .308? If not, please educate me); based on my tools, some of them don't. Does it burn me enough to send them back? No...I just re-barrel them or change out the bolt and the potential problem is resolved.


"He makes claims about his quality control then states that no one in Canada is equipped (and implies qualified) to verify his quality control
Once more I feel that you have not understood, or perhaps I was not clear, in my comments I was referrring to the head space issue, NOT quality control issues in general.... ANd I repeat, I do not know if any person outside the military who owns the instruments for correctly measureing the headspace on .762 Nato automatic weapons.... If there is I will gladly stand corrected....
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So what are these instruments and how are they different than my clymer gauges?


"simply admit the Chinese screw up every once in a while"
If you check my many postings you will quickly determine that we never hide from our customers, ask a question you will get an answer.... On many occasions we have admitted to errors being mad by overseas suppliers, taht is why Marstar implemented our ironclad wararnty policy many years ago.... How many other dealers have done this to protect the consumer ??
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I am happy you have your guarantee and I've never felt like I've needed to take you up on it. I'm also satisfied that your guarantee is better than most others out there. I do feel though that I have more tools (and possibly more M14 related knowledge) than your average consumer. I feel bad for someone who might unknowlingly get a rifle with headspace greater than 7.62 FIELD REJECT and that they won't be worried about this based on your assertations regarding quality control. I suppose this should not bother me too much as the worst I imagine would befall them is monster case separation issues at which point they send the rifle back to you for repair or replacement. Anyway...your guarantee is to be commended. It is your "quality control" specifically relating to headspace I have issues with.

" or to come clean with respect to what his headspace "quality control" standards are in a meaningful way that we can check ourselves."
Please tell me how you want this done ??
Would you like to visit the workshop ?? We are just completing the last lot of M-14s for the next container....
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How about telling us what the headspace specifications you use are? Ie: do you reject a rifle receiver/barrel/bolt combination if, when assembled, it gauges longer than 1.6405 7.62NATO NO GO? If not, how about 1.6455 FIELD REJECT? And if these are the wrong measurements how about clairification on what the right ones should be? And not some nebulous statement about consulting an expert. I am expecting you to be the expert and hoping you're patient enough to educate us uneducated folk. Again...please tell me about your tools.

I hope I haven't further agrevated the situation by further replying to your concerns ?
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Not at all....hopefully we're all big boys (or girls if there are any reading!) - spirited debate from time to time is a healthy thing.

Jason (aka Brobee)
 
Wow............this thread came back from the dead........:eek: ;)

I have measured the headspace on quite a few Norinco M14s and they ranged from 0.006" to 0.014" over SAAMI specs..................

I have also built several M14 type rifles and I chamber and headspace them to be dead nuts at 1.630"................I like a tight match chamber..........

I had a Hungry built M14 years ago that was set at a 2 thou crush...........1.628"..............this particular rifle was the most accurate M14 I have owned...........On a VERY serious note, it would hold its own against many custom built bolt action rifles..........It was a Sub .50 MOA rifle...............

As well, I owned an original Springfield Armory USGI M14...........many,many, moons ago.........

The soft bolt issue was in the 1990s with the Chinese M14s being imported into the U.S. So Fulton Armory is correct that there were issues AT THAT TIME............Fulton can not pass judgement on the current batch of Chinese M14s because import of them was banned by Bill Clinton...............

The rifles we are getting today here in Canada don't have those same issues...........The only issue with them is the large variance in headspace between rifles.........

As Brobee stated, it is not rocket science measuring headspacing as long as you have the proper gauges...........

I am also curious as to what these "super special" Automatic rifle headspace measuring gauges are.............I have never heard of them...............And I have seen the COMPLETE USGI M14 Armourers tool kit in person that was issued to the armourers.....:confused:.....(I know two members who own these its........)

So lets try not to get into pissing matches here and have a civil discussion in the resurected thread......

SKBY.:)
 
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If I may...
I believe Brobee's questions boil down to:

1) How do headspace gages for 7.62 NATO firearms differ from those for .308 Winchester (except, obviously, the length)?

2) What is the reject chamber length for the Marstar M305's?
 
For the record, I have never measured/set headspace on firearms chambered in 7.62NATO, when I wore a green suit to work, the .50 M2 and the .30 cal (.30-06) M1919 both got their headspace checked with... loaded ammo.

Yup, really. On the .50, you'd chamber a round, screw the barrel in until it was snug and back-off 3 clicks (I think)
 
BUCKBRUSH;
As you know Marstar has been the prime supplier of Cklass-111 parts to the US market for over 20 years, we have shipped tens of thousands of kits and live autos to the USA.
However for the past couple of years no barrels are allowed in, so we would have kits without receivers, without barrels, that does not leave much....

We are looking for a buyer for the entire lot, "as is where is" type of deal.
Thank you for being interested
John
 
johnone said:
FIRE;
For those I have off shore, in lots of 500 you are looking at $275.oo FOB warehouse.

JOhn
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If the warehouse was in Canada and if there would be others willing to participate in a "group buy", I'd be game. It would require 30 shares at $5500/share. I'd be in for at least one share, possibly two. I could probably even line up a properly permitted business for the transfer and all the stripping. Each share would wind up with parts (minus prohibited receiver) for approximately 20 rifles (assuming there would be some "duds". If there is enough interest to go for it, I'd suggest a preliminary non-refundable 250$/share round such that we could send someone to go inspect them (before importation, wherever they are in the world right now) and then tank the deal if they are all rusted out or mega-worn. Even then...at $275per rifle for a schwack of usgi parts, it's tempting even if we had to throw away the odd worn operating rod or pitted gas cylinder.

Any interest?

Brobee
 
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Thats an interesting proposal. I will have to give it some thought and see what the ole pocket book will allow. Even if I couldn't afford to go in on a share I would sure enough speak up for a couple or three parts kits :)
 
I'm in Brobee ;) seriously
have passport, will travel with my full set of tools
and did i mention...... I work for the port they would no doubt be coming through hehehe
 
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