Are the Norinco M14 bolts too soft?

BROBEE;
Please, I beg of you, get your facts straight....
"assuming there would be some "duds". I can assure you that Marstar's reputation internationaly for supplying all types of firearms is beyond reproach, we DO NOT offer or supply "duds"
We have supplied over 3/4 of a million firearms of all types to US market alone, we have not had a single complaint from our importers....

"and then tank the deal if they are all rusted out or mega-worn."
What can I say, you are obviously a new arrival in the arms business, otherwise you would be well aware of our reputation....
I am starting to be sorry I even mentioned this in Canada....
John
 
AS MENTIONED in private e mail;
Lets keep this serious....
IF there are any interested parties out there, I would be pleased to discuss the complete details further.... Inspection, warranty of condition etc, performance bond, just to name a few....

ALL sales to be governed by the laws of Canada....

The purchaser importer requires a business license to deal in full autos.

Also require a registration with the CG Directorate....

MUST have a valid IIC in place....

The importer's broker will apply for the import leicense when the cargo arrives in Canada....
JOHN
 
John, perhaps you missed it. Could I direct your attention to post #74 in this thread?

Me said:
I believe Brobee's questions boil down to:

1) How do headspace gages for 7.62 NATO firearms differ from those for .308 Winchester (except, obviously, the length)?

2) What is the reject chamber length for the Marstar M305's?
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Brobee said:
If the warehouse was in Canada and if there would be others willing to participate in a "group buy", I'd be game. It would require 30 shares at $5500/share. I'd be in for at least one share, possibly two. I could probably even line up a properly permitted business for the transfer and all the stripping. Each share would wind up with parts (minus prohibited receiver) for approximately 20 rifles (assuming there would be some "duds". If there is enough interest to go for it, I'd suggest a preliminary non-refundable 250$/share round such that we could send someone to go inspect them (before importation, wherever they are in the world right now) and then tank the deal if they are all rusted out or mega-worn. Even then...at $275per rifle for a schwack of usgi parts, it's tempting even if we had to throw away the odd worn operating rod or pitted gas cylinder.

Any interest?

Brobee
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I would probably be in for that...if it looks like it's getting close, I will start putting funds together.

So 3 down, 27 to go?

I will see if I can dig up a couple more interested parties.
 
misanthropist said:
I would probably be in for that...if it looks like it's getting close, I will start putting funds together.

So 3 down, 27 to go?

I will see if I can dig up a couple more interested parties.
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+1

Brobee's intention to have the deal verified is sound logic in my book. The goods would have to be inspected and graded, with an agreed and verifiable distribution mechanism in place. Full stop.

Frankly Johnone, some of your statements are concerning. I'm interested in what this deal might offer, and I HOPE I'm simply misreading what you are trying to say...

What can I say, you are obviously a new arrival in the arms business, otherwise you would be well aware of our reputation....
I am starting to be sorry I even mentioned this in Canada...
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Obviously. Do you imagine that naivety will make interested buyers more or less inclined to want to dot I's and cross T's?

I'm interested in cutting a financial deal. I'm not interested in over-the-counter sales games. There's simply no need to dip to insults and innuendo here.

Brobee, if this deal is for real PM me. I'm interested in forging a multi-party agreement; for which purpose a more appropriate venue might be in order.
 
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Splatter said:
If I may...
I believe Brobee's questions boil down to:

1) How do headspace gages for 7.62 NATO firearms differ from those for .308 Winchester (except, obviously, the length)?

2) What is the reject chamber length for the Marstar M305's?
Click to expand...

John, since you have stated that basically none of us have the tools/expertise to properly measure the M14 headspace, the M14 owners and your customers would like the above questions answered that were asked instead of ignoring the issue................

If you want to ignore these legitimate questions and skirt the issue, then your credibility is going to suffer...............

I personally would like an answer to the above questions regarding the reject spec you go by and the differences in the headspace gauges.

SKBY.
 
My question For John is how come you have not offered parts kits for the Canadian Market?

As far as the whole headspace and other issues lets just leave it that we all appreciate what Marstar has done in importing these rifles even with the minor imperfections that they come with. I'm sure that Marstar is tired of hearing of this. Lets just enjoy the years of fun shooting and tinkering we can all look forward to with our M 14's.

PS it would help if we had a readily available supply of Parts :D
 
Not only would I be new to the arms business, this would be the first transaction of significance on arms I'd ever participated in.

In participating in transactions dealing with 1000s (yes that's 1000s) of millions of $$ on industrial equipment (most in north america but some abroad on stuff like oil & gas processing equipment, gas turbines, power generation equipment, water treatment equipment, etc etc), one thing I've learned is that it's fine to trust everyone, but verify absolutely everything. More times than I would like to admit this has saved me and the people I work for who allow me to take significant financial and technical risk on their behalf. Sorry if that gets your feathers ruffelled but it's just plain risky to do anything else.

I have enough friends in the arms business who are properly permitted (with matching facilities) that were the deal doable ((ie: if the guns are importable for the purpose of stripping and parting out), the regulatory work would not be that big of a deal.

Regardless...I'm not prepared to spend more than 10k$ of my own cash on the M14 spare parts venture (more for my own hobby supply than anything else) so the remaining ~125k$ plus legal plus financing plus freight forwarding etc etc etc would need to be shared by other interested parties. It would be interesting to see if the CGN battlerifle community has a level of interest sufficient to finance this parts deal, however I kinda doubt it or Johnone would have already brought them into the country and had them stripped by now.

Anyway...it was interesting enough to me that I thought I'd throw it out there; I'll let others run point via private email from now on. If there is enough interest count me provided the deal firms up with proper protective measures for participants. One good thing about a public thread on the "deal" is it allows prospective participants to gauge and react to other people's interest and makes it much easier for a "collective" to agree on the terms of the deal and to then share info as it progresses. In exchange for this convenience, CGN should expect to receive a small facilitator fee should the deal pan out.

Back to the first hijack on this thread: I'm still interested in answers to the questions regarding tools/expertise on headspace and what you would consider a "reject" headspace to be in the chinese M14S department.

Brobee
 
Fire said:
My question For John is how come you have not offered parts kits for the Canadian Market?

PS it would help if we had a readily available supply of Parts :D
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Yes...it would be very nice to have lots of USGI parts!!!

Whatever else we might talk about in this thread, one thing for sure is that Marstar's been in business for a long time. This did not happen with them making bad business decisions, so I would hazard a guess that if there were not other barriers to importation of these M14s, then the reason they are still sitting is that there really is no money in stripping them for the canadian market.

Anyway....no facts here, just Brobee speculation. To re-iterate my initial statement...I'd LOVE to see a glut of USGI M14 parts hit the market.

Brobee
 
Fire said:
My question For John is how come you have not offered parts kits for the Canadian Market?

PS it would help if we had a readily available supply of Parts :D
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Probably because there is still hope of finding a number of qualified buyers for the intact guns. As John speaks of discounts of 500 rifle lots, it suggests to me that he is talking about more than a thousand guns in this lot.

Probably because the guns are not already in Canada, but in a foreign warehouse, they can't simply part out intact guns at random and sell kits as the orders come in.

Probably because if the guns are in Canada (which I doubt), the import permit didn't allow for the import of live guns to be turned into parts kits for civilian sale.
 
CANUCK223;
In fact we have just over 15,000 of these rifles....

AT their curernt location we are NOT setup for kitting, In our main off shore location we have have done kitting for almost 25 years.

We import automatic weapons all the time for a variety of reasons, including the making of "kits". Have been doing it for a long time.

I hope this answers your questions....
John
 
SPRINT;
"Obviously. Do you imagine that naivety will make interested buyers more or less inclined to want to dot I's and cross T's? "
NOT at all, perhaps I was a little "direct" I have been accused of this many times, I'm sorry if I hurt anybodys feelings.... I would point out that because we are well known in the area of automaic weapons and kits we get a large number of queries every month, I would say that 99% are invalide for one reason or another.... So please forgive my limited patience....
I would be pleased to help any aspiring dealer with all the forms, paperwork, registrations and all related matters, so lewt go and do it....


"There's simply no need to dip to insults and innuendo here."
As I said above, please do not take my comments to the personal level, I am simply trying to keep the matter on track....

BTW, if you are planning to enter this business plan on having your personal feelings removed, I had my surgicaly removed years ago, otherwise you will be in a constant state of emotional turmoil.... Constantly reviewing your business , I screwed on a deal my customers hate me my bank thinks I'm insane, I made an excellent deal ($$) my customers and friends now hate me due to envy and jealousy....
Best Regards,
John
 
anyone interested in pursuing this should p.m. me soonest :D

hmmm and hey john..... I could use a vacation. from my "semi retirement"..... I have all the tools to break em into kits for ya hehehe....... let's see..... 15,000 rifles...... I'd work till thier all done for say........ 500 kits :D :D hehehehe .... I also have homeland security issued Port access clearance/I.D. :D :D
 
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John and I had a brief discussion about those M-14's over lunch at Connaught a few years ago.

How long would it take 1 person to completely strip down, grease/preserve and pack 1 rifle?

Based on our discussion, and John and my's experience on this, we guestimated approximately 10 minutes to properly tear apart and preserve each rifle. So, one person, could take apart 6 rifles per hour, or 48 rifles per 8 hour day. Let's round that to 50 per person per day.

In a week, you're looking at only 250 rifles per person.

That means, that to tear down even 1000 rifles would take 1 person a whole month.

If you sent a team of 4 over to do it, you'd still be looking at a week.

Let's take the base cost of 1000 rifles, $275,000, add to that (my guess) $2000 per person for flights over, $1000 for food and accomodations (per person) and figure that they'd be getting paid at least $1500 for their week's work.

So, $8000 in flights, $4000 in food and accomodations, plus another $6000 in salary. You're now up to $293,000

Add to that whatever the cost of supplies for boxing and preserving the parts kits. Suppose that's $5,000 ($5 per gun) You're now at $298,000

What's it cost to get a shipping container full of gun parts moved across the ocean....these rifles are overseas, so, let me guestimate that between all the paperwork, shipping, licenses, etc, you're looking at up to $15,000, maybe more? (probably more....)

So now you're up to $313,000

That's just me pulling numbers out of my butt to toss them at you.

*shrug*

There's a lot of stuff there that I didn't include, but that's my take on what it might cost (probably a LOT more) to get 1000 of those guns turned into parts kits.

Then there's the issue of still having to deal with the receivers overseas, either for sale, or disposal.

*shrug*

It's not a cheap business guys.

NS
 
NavyShooter said:
...
*shrug*

It's not a cheap business guys.
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On the other paw, USGI bolts (complete) could fetch $200,
$100 for a barrel,
$100 for a trigger mech,
$50 for a stock,
$50 for sights,
$50 for the gas system,
$75 for the flash eliminator,
$25 for the mag (of course you'd have to add 10 minutes of time and a steel rivet),
$10 for the cleaning kit,
$20 for the bayonet.

We're at $680 each by my count.
 
I'm thinkin by the tiem a guy crunches the numbers...... you'd have to be retailing a kit for near a grand each for it to be even worth all the hoop jumping, liscencing...... waiting...... shipping.... waiting....... waiting..... and lots of pinkie crossing hehehehe
I'l let you guys know how I make out ;) ;)
 
if it made sense money wise, I guess Marstar would be doing it already. I don't understand why it isn't feasable, but I don't know anything about the buissness other than what John has shown us.

John, do you have any #4 Longbranch's taking up space in any of your warehouses?
 
Splatter said:
On the other paw, USGI bolts (complete) could fetch $200,
$100 for a barrel,
$100 for a trigger mech,
$50 for a stock,
$50 for sights,
$50 for the gas system,
$75 for the flash eliminator,
$25 for the mag (of course you'd have to add 10 minutes of time and a steel rivet),
$10 for the cleaning kit,
$20 for the bayonet.

We're at $680 each by my count.
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From experience buying and selling USGI M14 parts, these were the going rates a year ago.......

Complete bolt - Used - $200.00
Op Rod $150.00+
Gas Cylinder $100.00
Barrel $200.00+
Rear Sight $75.00
Flash Suppressor $100.00
Trigger Assembly $200.00+
Fiberglass stock $120.00+
Magazines $50.00+

That equals $1195.00....................

These prices were for USGI parts..............Price will vary with manufacturer, with TRW parts commanding a premium price...........

As people have said, this is not going to be a cheap venture............

SKBY.
 
Skullboy said:
From experience buying and selling USGI M14 parts, these were the going rates a year ago.......
...
That equals $1195.00....................
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I was basing my prices on what I thought a better supplied market would look like.
And I completely forgot about the op-rods. And also the "go-fast" parts so we can make-up the dummy kits, they gotta be worth 10 bux per kit., so with the op-rod going for $100 that makes my total nearly $800.

BTW, if you know of any good used USGI bolts going for $200 currently, pop me a PM. With headspace of 1.645, I could use a bit of snugging.
 
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