So if ATRS had used a LMT or KAC or JP or whatever high end BCG then what? You are picking one small aspect and making it sound like it completely ruins the rifle and devalues it down to Norinco price range.
You're saying it's a glorified DPMS because it uses a couple parts of theirs. How do you overlook all the other quality parts that are in this rifle including the beautifully machined CNC upper/lower they build in house?
DPMS is pretty much the American Norinco in terms of cost/quality (although it is better than Norinco). Had they chosen to use a Norinco BCG for the MV would you be fine with that?
If they had used a JP BCG or something of that quality, along with using quality parts in the LPK then you wouldn't hear any criticism from me regarding the quality of the components.
It doesn't completely ruin the rifle. What it does is brings the overall value of it down. I called it a glorified DPMS because from what we are seeing it's using DPMS as it's base, both in design and apparently with a number of parts the one confirmed is the action of the rifle the BCG. Even the base $3650 model comes with DPMS furniture. I don't overlook the other quality parts. In fact I've even stated that they are off the shelf high end quality parts.
Let's think of it this way. Consider this an AR308 build. You actually can build this rifle yourself, but it won't be non restricted. If you want the side charging handle like the MH then Start with an American Spirit Arms AR308 upper/lower matched set. Or if you want top quality then bring in a JP AR308 PSC-12 Side charging handle upper receiver which includes the BCG. Then put the parts you would want on it. If you really don't care about the side charging handle, then there are more options. The Maten matched upper/lower kit comes to mind. Done. But it won't be non restricted. There are lots of quality variants with matched upper/lowers for this system. I ask if you were building your dream AR15/AR308 with such high quality parts, would you choose to put in DPMS components? I have yet to see a high end AR15 build with the owner choosing any DPMS parts.
Let's also keep in mind that the only difference with the BCG in the MH/MV and the regular BCG is the American Spirit Arms notch in it. People with mill machines and even dremels have added this to their BCG before. ATRS will likely do this for you at a cost. That right there is the problem. The cost to change it out after already paying for the DPMS one. If there was the option of getting the JP BCG with the cost of the DPMS one taken off then this wouldn't even be an issue. Incidentally the JP LR-07 308 has a side charger much like the ASA/MH as well.
Last but not least, the old cliche it's only as strong as the weakest link comes to mind. Plus it's sort of like putting a Ferrari kit on a Fiero. It might look like one, sound like one etc but at the heart it's still a Pontiac.
I agree that the accuracy performance has not lived up to expectations based on my results with the three rifles I've shot but to be fair none of them were with tailored handloads or premium ammunition. While shooting the rifle now owned by onetwentyish (proof barrel) I did make some 5 round groups close to one moa but I would have to say the average was about 1.5 moa using Hornady z-max 168gr.
These results are why I think the rifle has potential but it hasn't been given a chance with premium ammo yet so it hasn't performed to it's potential.
Unfortunately I think that the majority of owners (with a few exceptions of course) who are seeing poor accuracy and reliability are just not experienced with semi auto precision rifles and don't know how to maintain their rifle properly and don't understand how ammo effects accuracy. In another thread I argued with a couple guys who were adamant that it should perform well with surplus and that premium match ammo would only make it better. It's the reports from people like that slagging the accuracy of the rifle that give it a bad name.
I agree that a semi auto 308 of this design should have zero issues digesting any hard nose ammo 145gr or heavier but to expect it to shoot it well is another thing.
Initially I considered those possibilities as well. It was the most likely. But I've seen enough evidence that this isn't the only thing going on here. if you look at this thread a few credible posters who I've read previous stuff from have tried everything including reloading and had those issues.
If you're so adamant that it's a pos and insist on continually bashing it I would like to hear that you purchased one from the EE and gave it a fair shake. First hand experience would give you a lot more credibility, not that I personally doubt it, I've read a lot of your posts on other topics and know you are knowledgeable and capable but in this case it seems you are basing everything on the BCG and the posts of people who may or may not have any idea what they are doing. There really isn't much to lose as long as you grab one for a good price as you will always be able to sell it to one of the fanboys for pretty much the same as you paid for it.
I'm not adamant it's a POS. I also don't get this "bashing it" or "hater" crud some have proposed. It is what it is.
If someone I know has one, I would gladly run it through it's paces. The price of entry is a bit steep to buy with all things pointing to it not delivering what I want. As for selling it to someone else... Ya, that would leave me with an issue, if there was something wrong with it. I would have to get it fixed at my cost for shipping along with dealing with ATRS. If it didn't shoot, well there is no actual accuracy guarantee on this rifle. The .5 to .75 was stated by Rick but not a guarantee. Which would leave me with selling my problem to an unsuspecting someone else. Trying to justify it as they are a fanboy etc still doesn't sit right with me. Financially with the information at hand, this would be a very poor decision on my part.
The bottom line is the MH is an AR308. I have a lot of experience with the various AR308 platforms. Including the one that the MH was ultimately based on. Sure, having owned one would give my opinion more credibility I guess. That being said, a few on here have posted the issues including reloading. Chago comes to mind, Yet no one has responded to him and the other posters who had one and couldn't get it to shoot. So credible yet ignored?
Credibility:
-Brought up that the MH was being advertised here on CGN and presold as non restricted before the final FRT number for non restricted. Got tons of flak, even though I was looking at the FRT number and write up. Credibility challenged. Proven correct.
-Discovered that the trigger was a Timney's drop in 1 pin AR10 trigger, courtesy of the FRT write up. Questioned the advertising posts implying it was ATRS propriety. Credibility challenged. Confirmed by ATRS as it was in writing from the lab. Proven correct.
-Discovered that the BCG was a DPMS one with an ASA copied notch. Received credibility challenges by a number of the usual suspects here. Evidence was there proving it to be so. It was't until Shawn of ATRS confirmed it that, this stopped. Then it became it's not a big deal. Again Credibility challenged and never never any thanks after the flak. Proven correct.
-Challenged that the accuracy being seen isn't what a good AR308 rifle can produce. Provided evidence of my experience and what they can do and what fliers in one actually should look like. Challenged and still challenged. Yet ATRS has stated that there is a cam pin fix for the accuracy issues with the first batch, customers are being contacted etc. Prior to that, it was the same argument we are seeing today. Again, credibility challenged although ATRS has even acknowledged there was a problem. Proven correct.
-Advised that the sales tactics and what was being stated/implied was suspect/questionable at times. Stolen valour thread comes up. Again proven that suspicions weren't off base.
So is it really credibility that is at issue here? If someone has one near me, I would love to see what it can do. That being said are those results going to be seen as Credible? For all the reasons listed above, I don't think credibility is actually the issue here. I've posted my thoughts, what I've found out and shared it. Agree or disagree. So be it.
CR5 are you buying one? I would look forward to your thoughts once you do.
