Sir You beat me to It!
I am 1 day late.
Damn, where is my bottle of loctite I need to cool down now plus I can shill for Robinson Armament.
Yeah....
Best .308 Black Rifle
- Thread starter blaxsun
- Start date
Sir You beat me to It!
I am 1 day late.
Damn, where is my bottle of loctite I need to cool down now plus I can shill for Robinson Armament.
Yeah....
The LMT is a fancier rifle. It comes well put together right out of the box. No need to add magpul stuff to it, or change out the trigger. But... if you want the 20" barrel it's another $950 or if you want the SS 16" rifle version it's over $3600 for the rifle. Yes I like mine. Do I like it better? I'm not sure. I don't think so. But...
The AR10 version I have isn't common. Same with Fireball's rifle. The 24" SS 1:11.25 twist triple lapped ceramic coated barrel with threads (Threaded for silencer not flash hider) isn't common. Plus the barrel and lower are metric marked. Also you need the Armalite match trigger set or better for this not the tactical version. This costs about $100 more. The Badger Ordnance rail is heavy but very functional. If damaged you can simply change it out. It's very heavy duty. The upper and lower fit/finish is perfect and yes it's "milspec" but it's classic AR15 style so not as flashy as the LMT. No ambi stuff, just regular. Then again I'm right handed so that suites me just fine. The A2 stock, again nothing flashy but it works well for me. The only change I've made for mine is going to the Magpul Miad and adding a flash hider to protect the threading (Flash hider rethreaded to work).
One of the reasons for Armalite's lack of popularity here is availability. Especially the military styled ones. Armalite's tactical barrels are 7.62mm marked and so are the lowers. So export has been an issue. If you look at the US threads there is a lot of debate over the Armalite SASS versus the LMT MWS for purchases. Pros/cons are listed but no one seems to post that the other one is garbage or inferior. While the LMT gets the nod for having more features and being fancier, the price and performance of the Armalite seems to win over just as many fans.
LMT: Very nice, very flashy. I like it. I'm looking forward to shooting this rifle.
The Armalite AR10: It's a purpose is very clear. It's efficient, built for function and very accurate. It's also very difficult to get. This is one of those rifles I plan on never selling.
The DPMS LR-308 on the bottom. It's a very nice consumer grade 308 AR. You notice it's a consumer grade product even when swapping out the pistol grip with a Miad. You have to use the DPMS screw while the military based rifles require the included magpul screw. The lines are very smooth but it doesn't feel like military gear. It feels like a target rifle. Which is what it is. Lots of fun, but just not as "sinister" as the others. I also prefer the 1:11.25 twist with the Armalite and LMT (with 20" 5R barrel option) over the 1:10 twist of the DPMS barrel. The 1:10 on mine likes faster ammo so it requires reloading or expensive and hard to find Lapua 167 grain ammo. The Armalite shoots the same stuff my Remington 5R shoots. You can buy off the shelf Federal Gold ammo easily and it shoots exceptionally well. Reloads in the 175 grain ammo are also consistent amongst a number of my rifles with 24" barrels and 1:11.25 twist rate
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For you guys who voted for the RFB... Really? 
It's a cool firearm but don't fool yourself it's nowhere near the rifle the AR10 or the LMT are. Excellent features and a good consumer fun gun. Not military grade. The accuracy of the AR10 and LMT rifles are competitive with excellent tactical bolt action rifles. The RFB is 1.5 moa and you might get it down to 1 moa. Sub MOA is unlikely. Plus there isn't a lot of known reloads for it. The 18.5" barrel doesn't like the same ammo as the other barrels with 1:11.25 twist rates. I can't interchange ammo with my other rifles.
Would I get one. Absolutely. Is it in the running for best 308 black rifle. Hell no.
It's a cool firearm but don't fool yourself it's nowhere near the rifle the AR10 or the LMT are. Excellent features and a good consumer fun gun. Not military grade. The accuracy of the AR10 and LMT rifles are competitive with excellent tactical bolt action rifles. The RFB is 1.5 moa and you might get it down to 1 moa. Sub MOA is unlikely. Plus there isn't a lot of known reloads for it. The 18.5" barrel doesn't like the same ammo as the other barrels with 1:11.25 twist rates. I can't interchange ammo with my other rifles.
Would I get one. Absolutely. Is it in the running for best 308 black rifle. Hell no.
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Yup have to agree about the size of the RFB 308 being impressive. The size and overall ergonomics of the rifle make it pretty nice. The mag release could have done better but everything else is right on.
It's essentially a SVT40, FN FAL, SKS, CZ858 tilting block short stroke piston system. Nothing untested about it. Been around since 1938 and tested on the Eastern front along with numerous conflicts since.
The only really new part of this rifle is the bullpup configuration, the decent trigger for a bullpup and the dual extractors used to shove the empty brass up to the shoot. Everything else is tried and true.
The materials though aren't military grade and they aren't tested to those standards. It's not a battle rifle. Also you won't be shooting sub .5 moa 5 round groups like you will with a 308 AR.
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No real time to do a side by side comparison or a photo shoot.
As a generality these are my observations:
Lowers are identical with the exception of engraved markings. If Knight's makes theirs, it is conceivable they make the Troy ones too, or Troy's are made in house under license.
I think the KAC trigger is a bit better, but the Troy is very good. I would not be shocked to see same components here between the two. Bolts are the same. Stocks and grips - all add on for user preference, change to suit on both.
Uppers - this is where the philosophy really changes. The LMT idea is novel and I bought on before knowing what they would want just for a barrel conversion, but it is just too bulky. It makes more sense to change an upper (and typically optics) as a package.
The Knight's rifle is quite a bit lighter and less bulky than the LMT, yet still maintains a heavy barrel and the fully railed interface the URX provides (and I'm comparing a 16" LMT to a 20" Knight's).
Barrels: not a fair comparison as above length differences as well as the LMT barrel is Chromed.
I think if you stuck a similar length and quality barrel on the LMT, they'd be very similar/same accuracy wise, but the weight difference would be more pronounced in the SR-25s favor.
They are very much a novelty to have in many ways, but offer some sometimes subtle cutting edge refinements over the competition that adds up. Only a buyer can determine if those differences are worth it. I do not consider the SR-25s double the gun following a price point model and tend to dismiss such arguments in the first place -they are not a reality for firearms enthusiasts here, or anywhere else.
As a generality these are my observations:
Lowers are identical with the exception of engraved markings. If Knight's makes theirs, it is conceivable they make the Troy ones too, or Troy's are made in house under license.
I think the KAC trigger is a bit better, but the Troy is very good. I would not be shocked to see same components here between the two. Bolts are the same. Stocks and grips - all add on for user preference, change to suit on both.
Uppers - this is where the philosophy really changes. The LMT idea is novel and I bought on before knowing what they would want just for a barrel conversion, but it is just too bulky. It makes more sense to change an upper (and typically optics) as a package.
The Knight's rifle is quite a bit lighter and less bulky than the LMT, yet still maintains a heavy barrel and the fully railed interface the URX provides (and I'm comparing a 16" LMT to a 20" Knight's).
Barrels: not a fair comparison as above length differences as well as the LMT barrel is Chromed.
I think if you stuck a similar length and quality barrel on the LMT, they'd be very similar/same accuracy wise, but the weight difference would be more pronounced in the SR-25s favor.
They are very much a novelty to have in many ways, but offer some sometimes subtle cutting edge refinements over the competition that adds up. Only a buyer can determine if those differences are worth it. I do not consider the SR-25s double the gun following a price point model and tend to dismiss such arguments in the first place -they are not a reality for firearms enthusiasts here, or anywhere else.
Good stuff. Always wanting to hear from someone who owns both. Thank you.
The LMT MWS that I have currently has the 20" SS 1:11.25 5R barrel on it. Yes you notice the weight difference. With the 16" barrel it's much lighter and handier. I can see why the UK chose the 16" SS version for a 7.62x51 Designated marksman rifle.
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The same thing about the LMT MWS. The MWS been out for what, 3 years?
Already 2 if not 3 generations of bolt carriers and bolts, 2 gen of receivers...
Wow. Really?
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Well imo it all commes down to the need and philosaphi of use and potential use. Most pesople voting on this poll channel on 2 major criteria or base of judgement, one being target shooter and the other hunter. And the requirement for these 2 task are quite diffrente. A target shooter will concider firstly the accuracy ergonomics and dependabilaty. The hunter will favor the portabilaty handling and will need it non restricted. Granted no body will take a 5 moe gun to hunt so they still want accuracy, but a accurate hunting gun might be 1 to 1.5 moe, to a target shooter that just suck! But the target shooter will not mind having the 20 inch heavy barrel, 42 inch over all lenght and 10 to 15 pound rifle. Witch majoraty of hunters will not care to carry in the bush.
Now to had another dimention alot if people love there gun and may fanticize or worry about a possible unravelling ( shtf, default, ww3, wwz, etc) and also include those variable to determine what criteria they need in a rifle like the weight and lenght of the rifle for walking/stalking, geting in/out of vehicule; some will preache the avabilaty off ammo, spare parts etc.
To sum it up I think the rfb came in first its not cause of accuracy, track record, fame of the compagnie making them but its potential and compacgness!
I am probably one of the few people here that owns a POF and not one of the others. The POF is an awesome unit, extremely reliable and very accurate although probably not quite as accurate as the LMT, KAC, or DPMS. I have mine listed for sale on the EE, something I never thought I would do, but the urge to try something else is very strong and I don't shoot my 308's a lot anyway. If my POF sells I will probably try a LMT or possibly a KAC. If only I hadn't let Simpleton snag that Noveske Leonidas upper........
Makes it easier to shoot from a bag.
It's actually a "feature"!! That's one of the things with the DND AR10 rifles they are definitely heavy pigs. But are so easy to shoot. That really heavy Badger ordnance handguard sits in a front bag better than the LMT, DPS etc. But you pay for it. The 24" doesn't help either. But again it shoots really well.Well to keep this thread alive and to serve my own desire for good info. from the many experienced black .308 semi. owners/users that have fed me a lot of very good intel so far on this thread. (thanks to you all btw) If one was interested in acquiring a black .308 semi. of a restricted, mil.-spec. design in a less then a 16" barrel, could any of you much wiser then myself on this topic offer a little assistance. (Epoxy7, Beltfed, Leibermuster, Rally Guy, Fireball etc. etc.)
As I am very interested in gathering info. from those in the know regarding a shorter barrelled .308 semi. rifle in the 10" to 14.5" variety, things I have been pondering are ballistics/energy to manage accurate shots at extended ranges (300 meters to 600 meters) with these shorter barrel lengths the pros and cons to this decision of dropping below the 16" to 20"+ barrelled variety and finally any recommendations to the availability of these sub 16" barrelled rifles by any of the makers of this thread including Armalite, POF and others that may not be listed.
Being a restricted AR it would obviously be for range use only, however I'm looking at the aspects of portability, light weight/ease in handling and good balance while maintaining acceptable accuracy and exceptional reliability in very harsh conditions and all climates. At distances of 100 meters .5" MOA and at 300+ meters 1" to 1.5" MOA MOA would be my goals if that's not asking to much of a 10" to 14.5" barrel in a .308 caliber.
Finally if a suitable non-restricted black .308 semi-auto. is/will become available (within a year) for under $5,000 that could offer similar results while still meeting the criteria of portability/low weight and accuracy along with extreme reliability (in a 18"+ barrel length) I might be interested, but please no XCR's, RFB's or FNAR's...
My apologies for the extended questions, but you all could save me countless hours of research which would be taken from less reliable sources (IMO), so thank you to any and all that can fuel my dream of owning a kick ass compact .308 semi. that I would be likely to keep for a lifetime. Cheers getting your firearm of choice Zeroed-In.
As I am very interested in gathering info. from those in the know regarding a shorter barrelled .308 semi. rifle in the 10" to 14.5" variety, things I have been pondering are ballistics/energy to manage accurate shots at extended ranges (300 meters to 600 meters) with these shorter barrel lengths the pros and cons to this decision of dropping below the 16" to 20"+ barrelled variety and finally any recommendations to the availability of these sub 16" barrelled rifles by any of the makers of this thread including Armalite, POF and others that may not be listed.
Being a restricted AR it would obviously be for range use only, however I'm looking at the aspects of portability, light weight/ease in handling and good balance while maintaining acceptable accuracy and exceptional reliability in very harsh conditions and all climates. At distances of 100 meters .5" MOA and at 300+ meters 1" to 1.5" MOA MOA would be my goals if that's not asking to much of a 10" to 14.5" barrel in a .308 caliber.
Finally if a suitable non-restricted black .308 semi-auto. is/will become available (within a year) for under $5,000 that could offer similar results while still meeting the criteria of portability/low weight and accuracy along with extreme reliability (in a 18"+ barrel length) I might be interested, but please no XCR's, RFB's or FNAR's...
My apologies for the extended questions, but you all could save me countless hours of research which would be taken from less reliable sources (IMO), so thank you to any and all that can fuel my dream of owning a kick ass compact .308 semi. that I would be likely to keep for a lifetime. Cheers getting your firearm of choice Zeroed-In.
