best for Elk at distance 7 mm mag or 300 win mag ?

Jordan Smith said:
OP, nice elk and rifle/scope setup! Hopefully you enjoy it.

Regarding the 7mmRM vs. .300WM debate- we've been down this road a hundred times, but to add to what has already been said:

Byan Litz is designing the 7mm 195gr Berger EOL Hybrid, which should come out soon, and has an estimated G1 BC of .794 and G7 BC of .406. Pretty tough for a .300WM to hang with a 7Mag once you get past a few hundred yards, even with the new Berger .308 pills. A .300 RUM will match/beat a 7Mag, but then again, you're using nearly twice the powder and getting a whole lot more recoil and blast.

The 7Mag is absolutely the most for the least.
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Kind of off topic but a fellow on 24hr CF is hitting 3000fps with the .300 RUM + 230gr Berger + RL33

On the other hand, your points won't make a difference to 99.9% of folks out there. I wonder what % of hunters could hit a milk jug at 400 yards from a field position on the first try.
 
1899 said:
Kind of off topic but a fellow on 24hr CF is hitting 3000fps with the .300 RUM + 230gr Berger + RL33

On the other hand, your points won't make a difference to 99.9% of folks out there. I wonder what % of hunters could hit a milk jug at 400 yards from a field position on the first try.
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That's only relevant if you're hunting milk jugs at 400yds.The kill/anchoring zone on most big game animals is slightly larger.
 
1899 said:
Kind of off topic but a fellow on 24hr CF is hitting 3000fps with the .300 RUM + 230gr Berger + RL33

On the other hand, your points won't make a difference to 99.9% of folks out there. I wonder what % of hunters could hit a milk jug at 400 yards from a field position on the first try.
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Considdering the number of 400+ yard ranges that allow you to practice from anything other than a bench.....not many have the developed skill.

I would lean towards the flatter shooting 7mm because it takes out some of the errors in range estimation. Less recoil and less carried weight. A 300wm is over kill in my opinion. We know a 243 will take an elk @ 300+ yds if hit properly...dead is dead.
 
ciphery said:
Considdering the number of 400+ yard ranges that allow you to practice from anything other than a bench.....not many have the developed skill.
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Exactly. But those who are keen go out into cutblocks and practice. My point is that a very tiny minority of people will have the skill/desire to take advantage of the advantages that one chambering might have over another at extreme ranges. For most of us 300 - 400 yards is pretty much it.

joe-nwt said:
That's only relevant if you're hunting milk jugs at 400yds.The kill/anchoring zone on most big game animals is slightly larger.
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I suspect the most commonly hunted big game animals are deer. And I bet the majority of them are in the 100-150lb range, which are not very big animals. In my opinion, if you can't, in calm circumstances with all the time in the world, hit something the size of a milk jug (which isn't much smaller than the vitals on a 100-150lb animal) you probably shouldn't be shooting at that distance.

Your argument is kind of like saying practicing at the range on paper is only relevant if you hunt paper.
 
buy both then make your own decision..I have a 300 rum and 7mm mag..both are great..I liked the 7mm STW aswell..
 
1899 said:
Exactly. But those who are keen go out into cutblocks and practice. My point is that a very tiny minority of people will have the skill/desire to take advantage of the advantages that one chambering might have over another at extreme ranges. For most of us 300 - 400 yards is pretty much it.
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Couldn't agree more.
 
rral22 said:
Agreed. But if all you want is "the most", there is more of everything in the .300 magnums than in the 7mm versions.

If you insist on 'for the least" then you can get quite close to the .300's, but you can't match them.
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Show me a .300WM load that will beat the external ballistics of a .625 BC bullet at 3100fps from a 7RM passed a few hundred yards. Better yet, a .794 BC bullet at 2850-2900fps from a 7Mag.

For most people, there is no discernible difference between them in the real world, at all. For the other guys, the .300WM can't beat the 7RM when it comes to the external ballistics that matter.
 
1899 said:
Kind of off topic but a fellow on 24hr CF is hitting 3000fps with the .300 RUM + 230gr Berger + RL33

On the other hand, your points won't make a difference to 99.9% of folks out there. I wonder what % of hunters could hit a milk jug at 400 yards from a field position on the first try.
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I have a hard time believing these numbers. He would have to be using a massive contur 30+ inch barrel with a progresive twist , and i still find it hard to believe. I believe he could get it going that fast , just not with good acurracy. I know an old timer that literally has 20 300RUM's , he said he cant get a 180 going more than 3100-3200fps without sacrificing a sh*t load of accuracy... However he could be sh*t house luckey and may have gotten an acceptional barrel. But even on a custom i would never exspect those numbers on a 230gr.
 
Jordan Smith said:
Show me a .300WM load that will beat the external ballistics of a .625 BC bullet at 3100fps from a 7RM passed a few hundred yards. Better yet, a .794 BC bullet at 2850-2900fps from a 7Mag.

For most people, there is no discernible difference between them in the real world, at all. For the other guys, the .300WM can't beat the 7RM when it comes to the external ballistics that matter.
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This post hit the nail on the head !
 
Jordan Smith said:
Show me a .300WM load that will beat the external ballistics of a .625 BC bullet at 3100fps from a 7RM passed a few hundred yards. Better yet, a .794 BC bullet at 2850-2900fps from a 7Mag.

For most people, there is no discernible difference between them in the real world, at all. For the other guys, the .300WM can't beat the 7RM when it comes to the external ballistics that matter.
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Well, I guess it is hard to beat imaginary numbers.
 
200gr Accubond or Partition is hard to beat in a 300 Win @ 2900+fps in the real world, quote all the crap you want, seeing the holes in an animal is what counts. A 300 Mag and a 200gr is where anytime, any shot elk rifles begin. When you have limited time and an expensive hunt on the line its 300 and up. By all means use smaller if you have lots of time and live right where you hunt. I saw 13 5x5 bulls this season, anywhere from 30yds to 348yds, no 6 points. Some were on very bad angles that a person shouldn't shoot with a smaller gun (some do), I know I want a 300 Mag and a 200gr Partition (mine is a 300 WBY) or better for those iffy shots.
Another thing to consider is bears, we have "dinner bell bears" here. Big Grizzlies that come into the sound of a shot, no kidding and want to take what you have down. I feel a little more comfortable with a gun that will slap them hard. My new gun this spring will be a 338 Win, 340 WBY, 338 RUM, 358 Norma or a 375 H&H for elk with this in mind. You can have your high BC 7mm... bullet diameter counts for more with me.

Oh and slam a VLD at high velocity at close range into an animal vs a Partition and see what happens :p
 
This talk of minimum serious elk calibres is humorous. Bullets make about 10x more difference than chamberings here. I've seen the 7mm 140gr TTSX penetrate through so much moose that I doubt any elk could prevent one that is vital-bound from reaching the goods. Phil Shoemaker, world-renowned Alaskan Brown bear guide and outfitter, often carries his .30-06 when going in after wounded brownies, because that is the rifle that he is the most intimately familiar with.

And BTW, they're called VLD Hunting bullets. Note- "hunting" ;)

I love TTSX bullets, and I love A-Max bullets. I'm not pigeon-holed into thinking there's only one way and one bullet type to hunt successfully. :)
 
VLD means very low drag, has nothing to do with wether it is a hunting bullet or not. I know there are many that refuse to to believe that a match style hunting bullet is still a hunting bullet, I used to be one myself. But the evidence is there to prove that they are incredibly effective.

So with the superior BC of the 7mm bullets out there, for LONG range no 300 mag can compete, at closer ranges there is no discernible difference with comparable bullets.
 
Cleftwynd said:
VLD means very low drag, has nothing to do with wether it is a hunting bullet or not. I know there are many that refuse to to believe that a match style hunting bullet is still a hunting bullet, I used to be one myself. But the evidence is there to prove that they are incredibly effective.

So with the superior BC of the 7mm bullets out there, for LONG range no 300 mag can compete, at closer ranges there is no discernible difference with comparable bullets.
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I've personally seen the complete and utter failure of match/vld type bullets on game several times. I would really like to see Berger et al show some videos of their bullet performance at closer range. And FWIW, none of these bullets were originally designed for hunting, the manufacturers are simply attempting to broaden their market.
 
Cleftwynd said:
VLD means very low drag, has nothing to do with wether it is a hunting bullet or not. I know there are many that refuse to to believe that a match style hunting bullet is still a hunting bullet, I used to be one myself. But the evidence is there to prove that they are incredibly effective.

So with the superior BC of the 7mm bullets out there, for LONG range no 300 mag can compete, at closer ranges there is no discernible difference with comparable bullets.
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What gets printed on the box does not change anything inside the box. There is a growing list of people who have believed the box, and found out the advertising isn't necessarily true.

There is WAY more to a good hunting bullet than a high B.C. and anyone who buys hunting bullets based on that number alone is ignoring the most important factors that make a hunting bullet a good one. Even if a particular bullet has a slightly "flatter" trajectory, trajectory can always be learned and taken into account; in fact, it must ALWAYS be learned and taken into account no matter what it actually is. People who know how can hit 1000 yard gongs with lobbed shots from a .45-70. Trajectory is judged to be vitally important only by hunters who have not shot very much game.

Terminal performance is the most important quality in a hunting bullet, whether that performance is at close or long range, and I won't hunt with a bullet that won't do both. For any of the modern bullets with proven terminal performance, the big 30's will, beyond a doubt, provide an advantage over the same bullets in the big 7 mms. Maybe, some day, someone will actually make a bullet that will be ballistically superior to any .30 cal. bullet built today, but then, of course, you could make the equivalent in .30 cal. and the ballistic advantage is gone again.
 
Jordan Smith said:
Phil Shoemaker, world-renowned Alaskan Brown bear guide and outfitter, often carries his .30-06 when going in after wounded brownies, because that is the rifle that he is the most intimately familiar with.
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With 200gr or 220gr Partitions. That is a mighty fine combo, imo, and those are the bullets I use in .300 Mags.

I've been working up the skills to shooter longer ranges and am experimenting with the 175gr Sierra Game King in the 7mm RM. It has only a slightly lower BC than the VLD type bullets, but I think they will hold together much better, especially at the closer, normal ranges. IIRC the GK actually has a better BC than the MK (according to Litz's testing).
 
rral22 said:
. Maybe, some day, someone will actually make a bullet that will be ballistically superior to any .30 cal. bullet built today, but then, of course, you could make the equivalent in .30 cal. and the ballistic advantage is gone again.
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The problem with "ballistically superior" .30 cal bullets is that they have to be quite heavy, which means larger case capacity and charges required to get similar velocity and exterior ballistics. I am speaking only of drop/windage here. That is part of the appeal of the .264" 140gr bullets - their ballistics can match 168gr 7mm bullets and 210gr .308" bullets. Of course with the popularity of long range hunting, there is another factor - energy/momentum. The lighter bullets just don't have that much at very long ranges.
 
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