British Commonwealth troops envious of U.S. M1 rifle

My uncle went to Korea with the Black Watch.He told me stories about some of the firepower he carried.His Enfield was scoped so it was terrible for partols and whatnot so he "aquired" a .30 carbine.He woke up one night to find a Chineese soldier rooting through a buddies stuff in his tent.He had come through the wire and was trying to find food or something.He grabbed up his carbine and tried to whack the guy right in the tent.He said it was nearly point blank and couldn't have missed the shots that he fired,but the guy ran out and went back into the wire with my uncle in hot pusuit.Never saw the guy again.
He said he had even heard reports of the Chineese thick winter coats stopping...or at least putting a damper on that little round.Among other things,he "found" a Thompson which he carried for the rest of his tour when the Enfield wasn't needed.He said that when they were packing up to come home the order came down to dispose of all of the non issue weapons they had "found" as none would be allowed back into the country.So like a good soldier he follewed orders and took apart the Thompson along with a grease gun and chucked them down the local ####ter.When he got onto the plane he soon discovered that most of the boys had thier miscellaneous weapons apart and strapped to thier legs.Needless to say he was pretty pissed.

Myself,I grew up around Enfields, so I have a bit of an affinity for those old work horses.
 
That's a great looking No.4

Riflechair said:
You chaps seem to be forgetting that we had BREN GUNS in Korea as well. In addition, in a situation where ammo is in short supply you do not want your troops going full rock and roll on the enemy. You want every round to represent a kill. Consequently to this suppresion fire is suppresion fire - in a defensive or offensive situation but regardless of this you can achieve both with the correct number of soldiers, a good NCO in charge and a lee enfield in trained hands.

Those of you whom are opposed to the lee enfield evidently do not understand its potential as far as rapid fire is concerned (under field conditions). Sure its initially slower than the M1 Garand (but not by much). How long does it take to reload an enblock clip compatred to a 5 round stripper clip? Probably, round for round about the same.

Above all of this what I know this this. When every round counts in a far distant land, where resupply is tentative and when your life depends on reliability you want a No4Mk1* Lee Enfield.

By far the Lee Enfield is the KING of the bolt action battle rifles and KING for steady reliability under the worst field conditions. I carry a No4Mk1* with the CDN Rangers. My rifle has been covered in mud, water, covered in hemlock needles and it still fires like a trooper reliably. If I have to I can use a rock to beat the bolt down and it will still fire. I've carried an "As New" Danish M1 Garand (winchester) in the bush for bear defense (I work for the BC Forest Service) they are heavy, cumbersome difficult to wield and in my opinion unreliable because of the enblock clip adaptation. Its a big hole where too much #### can get in between your enblock clip and the receiver.

I keep the No4Mk1* and sell the M1 Garand everythime!
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Couldn't help notice the pic of your No.4, looks to be like new, butt plate has no scratches, is it a late production No.4 {1949-1950}??,could you tell us a little about it . Im' a somewhat envious, Thanks
 
RifleDude: A lot of truth in what you say about the training the yanks got before going to Korea, but there were also many units of regulars in the US army over there ,and they were good troops. A far as all Comonwealth troops wanting a Garand, just not , many did and it was a lot of ,If they got it it must be good. The MC1 & 2 beat the hell out of a Sten at 100 yds. And dont forget , even back in the 50s there was a Spray & Pray mentality. Didn't work then , does not work now. Any fire ,to be effective ,single rounds or full auto needs to be AIMED. One of the best Squad weapons in Korea was the Bren. Fired in three shot bursts was very effective,and easy to master. It was by far the sweetest full auto weapon I have ever fired. I played around with a Russian "Burp Gun".Shure put a lot of metal in the air, very inaccurate and hard to control.Short (3 or 4 shot Bursts) almost impossible due to the high cyclic rate. We had one instructor who told all , The best weapon in action is the one that you know best how to keep clean and how to shoot. And when in a fire fight I think most if not all Riflemen used 10 5 5 rule for loading. Duker
 
Longshot: Just what your uncle was doing with a scoped rifle on a patrol??The only scoped rifles I ever saw were for snipers.Never heard of a sniper on a patrol, just does not make any sense.Auto ( stens )weapons were first choice for a patrol. I didn't know the Black Watch was ever in Korea .Duker
 
Hi guys!

I joined a few months ago, but this is my first post.

In answer to whether an M1 Garand or FN kicks more...I say the Garand.

I've shot both at the Custer, WA range in the U.S.

The Garand was one of several the range was considering purchasing, and the L1A1 belongs to an American friend.

Coincidentally enough, the Garand was chambered in 7.62x51mm (.308 Win) and we were using the same surplus ammo in both types of rifles. So there can be no argument about the differences in recoil energy between the .308 vs. the .30-06 cartridges.

All of us shooting that day noticed a significantly lesser felt recoil with the FN.

I much prefer the sights of the Garand anyday though.

I've owned a long Branch No.4 Mk.1 that was sporterized and deeply regret ever trading it away. Mine was incredibly accurate with Federal 180gr. SP Classics. In my opinion they make a fantastic bush gun (I just hate rimmed cartridges.)

This may be off topic, but If I only had one choice of which rifle I could take into combat, it would be an AK-47. Otherwise, I would take an M14 if none were available.

Cheers!
 
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SKS Rifles

Rain_Song said:
Did the Red Chinese have SKS rifles in Korea?
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I don't know about the ChiCom's having SKS rifles ,but i know they were well equiped with the PPSH 41 smg, also known as the "Burp Gun",firing the potent 7.62 pistol cartridge.These weapons had a longer range than our Sten gun/9mm,Tommy Gun or the US M-3 smg aka{the Grease Gun}firing the.45acp. cartridge.and the PPSH-41 had a very high rate of fire.I believe this is why alot of Canadian troops feeling at a disadvantage with the No.4 rifle , helped themselves to the U.S.M1 carbine,especially when on night patrols.
 
The Russian made SKS 45 was made from the mid 50s to the late 60s, the SKS 56 Chicom was made from 56 to 71. So it ws not very likely to have showed up in Korea. I never seen one while in Korea 51, 52nd never met any one who did.And if they did it would have been from Chicom forces, not North Koreans. The Chinese and Russians gave the NKs older well used ww2 weapons. Duker
 
MapleSugar said:
Hi guys!

In answer to whether an M1 Garand or FN kicks more...I say the Garand.

This may be off topic, but If I only had one choice of which rifle I could take into combat, it would be an AK-47.
Cheers!
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Guess it all depends on the individual... I own both and my take is that the FN kicks more... but they use different operating systems, so there is a slightly noticeable difference in the "kick". Course, I can no longer fire the FN legally, so my "scientific research" is done... for now (until we get a CPC gov't elected and they UNprohibit the thing).

As far as the AK... YA! There is no question it is THE best combat rifle of the 21st century. Natually I will get a bunch of AR fanatics telling me that I'm wrong... :p
I own a Norinco AK clone, and have owned both a SP1 AR15 and a HBAR AR15... the former, for many years (as it shot cheap 55 grain ammo much better then the faster twist HBAR)... sold both the ARs. Yes the ARs can outshoot the AK but at combat ranges, reliability far outstrips pinpoint accuracy, IMHO. Have NEVER had a jam with the AK, something I sure can NOT say about either AR.
 
Hey Freddo!


I'm not totally sure of this, but I think that one thing that could affect the recoil energy of your FN is if the gas system isn't adjusted right. I'm not sure what the correct setting is for them, but I think you shoot it until the bolt fails to cycle, then open the system a couple of clicks (I'll have to look it up to be sure.) It's too bad they're prohibited, I'd like to own one of them too.

I'm in total agreement with you. Back before the restrictions, I used to own an AR-15 and a Norinco AKS underfolder. I miss the AK......not the AR.

I doubt we'll ever see a reversal of the guns on the black list, but it would be nice.

Take care!
 
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Maplesugar you are absolutely right. There's the gas adjustment selector on the rifle, put it at "0" and no gas gets ported, put it at "9" and there's a big old blow-hole and your breech more than likely will not unlock. And of course it CAN kick harder when you put that gas selector on zero... which would only be necessary if you are having FTF or eject issues.

The AR's were fun to shoot, extremely accurate, but just not as reliable as the AK. Course with Norinco ball ammo you're lucky to get a 2" or so group at 100 yards with an AK... ;)

Reversal of the "bad guns" listing, well, you never know... first we have to elect a CPC gov't and then work on them!
 
A lot of other countries' troops were fitted with US kit (including ours at one point), which is only appropriate seeing as how it was really a US unilateral action (heavily invested in thier communist dominoe theory at the time), somewhat camouflaged by the UN. Most of the countries going in only had left over WW2 gear, and not a lot of that usually. The comment early on about King starving the military hits very close, but to be fair most Canadians were pretty damned sick of war and anything that reminded them of it. In comparison of the Garand vs. the FN in terms of recoil, I own and shoot both, and I find the garand has slightly more recoil, nothing to write home about though. Getting back to the original question, yes, our troops did covet the Garand (as would I in the same situation), and yes, they "aquired" them whenever possible. I'm doing this from memory, but I believe the only Canadian troops involved in Korea were the PPCLI and the Van Du's - dan
 
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Brig. Gen. S.L.A. Marshall researched how American troops were employing their weapons in combat during the Korean War. One of the problems that kept reappearing was that infantry units underestimated how much ammunition would be consumed during a firefight with the North Koreans or Chinese.

The worst offenders were the M2 carbines. Troops would rip through a 30-round magazine and their four spares and be out of ammo. The next ones to go were the .30 light machine guns. They never seemed to carry enough ammo to keep them going. The M1 rifles and BAR never ran out. The BAR was the squad automatic weapon of the rifle squad. Soldiers would breakdown 8-round clips of Garand ammunition to load into BAR magazines to keep the gun going in a fight.

Thompsons and Grease Guns were preferred for patrolling.

The M1/M2 carbine was notorious for its lack of punch against the enemy's heavy quilted winter clothing and its reliability. In the first year of the war (1950-1951) the carbine's reputation for jamming was so bad that the USMC replaced them all with M1 rifles. The Army continued to issue M1/M2 carbines to officers, NCOs, and members of crew served weapons.

Another thing that ran out pretty fast in a fight was hand grenades. The Korean War was much like WW1 in begining in late 1951 and continuing to the armistice in 1953. The front line became stable and the troops dug in on the various hills.

Sniping was resurrected by the Army and Marines with a variety of rifles. The Marines had their M1903A1 (M1942) sniper's rifles with the 8x Unertl scopes and M1C's. The Army had some old M1903A4 sniper rifles and M1C's and M1D's. Marine scout snipers had a mount for their 8x Unertl scopes that would fit the scope mounting bracket on .50 Browning machine guns. The big .50 would be sandbagged for stability and a paticular lot of ammo that showed good accuracy was selected. The troops then employed the .50 in single shot mode to pick off NK and Chinese troops at long ranges.

One weapon that was intensely feared by the NK and Chinese troops was the M16 halftracks with quad .50 machine guns or the M45D towed quad .50 machine guns. The combined punch and firepower of the quads was terrifying to the enemy troops. Sometimes the .50s were augmented by M19 gun motor carriages that mounted twin 40mm Bofors guns. Infantry caught in such a meat grinder was finished.

MG
 
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