Bush Pilot Revolver ?
- Thread starter trekstor
- Start date
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
9mm's not even an option in the sphere we're talking, too weak. For an auto, minimum 10mm Auto or .45 Super / .45-08. Revolvers are generally better suited to this task, it's stopping bears, not zombies.
At the risk of offending some, I'd like to respond. After reading this thread, anyone who does not live in or spend a lot of time in a wilderness area of Canada will think that it's not safe to step outside without at least a loaded .44 Magnum. The idea of having a bear attack a group of people stepping off of an airplane is simply absurd. I would argue that urban areas are far more dangerous than our Canadian wilderness areas. How many thousands of people die on the streets of our cities each year, jaywalking or from urban violence? Compare that to the handful who die from attacks from wild animals in the entire country.
We live in the northern boreal forest and have done so for nearly forty years. We have few human neighbors and have more bears, wolves, and cougars nearby than people. Year round, we spend much of our time outside, in the forest. About the only time I carry a gun is when I go hunting. In addition, I've hiked thousands of kilometers in the western Canadian mountain ranges. I've also spent time in all three of Canada's territories, including on the shore of Hudson Bay with its polar bear population.
In thousands of hours spent in wilderness situations, I've run across bears, wolves, and cougars on more occasions than I can count. Only twice in all those encounters did I become concerned. Once, a bear followed us for a ways. Then he disappeared. Another time in the mountains, a bear acted aggressively and came towards us. That time we had a rifle along. A shot placed into the ground in front of the bear discouraged him and gave us time to move off, out of his territory. Any loud gun (of any caliber), or even a bear banger, likely would have done the same thing.
Admittedly, I feel safer carrying a gun when I'm alone in the wilderness. And I'd carry a handgun at times if I could. But let's keep this in perspective.
We live in the northern boreal forest and have done so for nearly forty years. We have few human neighbors and have more bears, wolves, and cougars nearby than people. Year round, we spend much of our time outside, in the forest. About the only time I carry a gun is when I go hunting. In addition, I've hiked thousands of kilometers in the western Canadian mountain ranges. I've also spent time in all three of Canada's territories, including on the shore of Hudson Bay with its polar bear population.
In thousands of hours spent in wilderness situations, I've run across bears, wolves, and cougars on more occasions than I can count. Only twice in all those encounters did I become concerned. Once, a bear followed us for a ways. Then he disappeared. Another time in the mountains, a bear acted aggressively and came towards us. That time we had a rifle along. A shot placed into the ground in front of the bear discouraged him and gave us time to move off, out of his territory. Any loud gun (of any caliber), or even a bear banger, likely would have done the same thing.
Admittedly, I feel safer carrying a gun when I'm alone in the wilderness. And I'd carry a handgun at times if I could. But let's keep this in perspective.
richard proenneke used to carry his revolver ( 44 mag i figured) or a rifle. He lived in the alaskan wilderness for 30 years. Nothing wrong with being carefull. I wouldnt go walking by myself through any wilderness where there is even a remote possibility that i may run into a grizzley or wolf without some sort of protection.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
This is very true. On this site, you could often get the impression that if not armed with a shotgun and two revolvers, bears will be fighting over your entrails in minutes after getting out of a vehicle. My father worked for forestry, and then parks in the Yukon, he had many grizzly encounters as he was one of the people called when a problem bear wouldn't leave a campsite say. Typically, he was unarmed during his grizzly herding activities minus a garbage can lid and a stick, and while he has some stories, he's still here.
That said, my dad and pilots are in slightly different boats. Truth be told, as a pilot, if you get stuck in a remote area, there is a terribly high chance you and/or your passengers maybe be badly injured and immobile. A gun makes a lot of sense if pitched out, bleeding and unable to walk in the boreal waiting on rescue. An aircraft crash is a much different scenario than mountain treks, something I've logged scores of miles doing as well unarmed. There is the added complication that bearspray in a small aircraft has some very undesirable and downright dangerous potential issues.
That said, my dad and pilots are in slightly different boats. Truth be told, as a pilot, if you get stuck in a remote area, there is a terribly high chance you and/or your passengers maybe be badly injured and immobile. A gun makes a lot of sense if pitched out, bleeding and unable to walk in the boreal waiting on rescue. An aircraft crash is a much different scenario than mountain treks, something I've logged scores of miles doing as well unarmed. There is the added complication that bearspray in a small aircraft has some very undesirable and downright dangerous potential issues.
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
After having an ATC for a few years, I will add my 2 cents.
Revolver over auto with the exception of a Glock 20 in 10mm with good commercial loads like something from Corbon or hardcast. If revolver, 10mm being on the bottom and as large as you can "realistically practice and shoot often" to become and keep proficient. Probably 44 mag is the best choice here. Most people can handle a 460 once or twice but practicing with it becomes onerous and you will end up not practicing enough to become anywhere near proficient nor keep the proficiency up.
Ruger Redhawk over S&W 629. 4.2" or 5" barrel is the preference.
Now to the carry portion. Strong side, High ride custom leather holster. This is one thing that will allow you to comfortably carry a heavy firearm all day and not notice it. This does not need be a expensive item. I have a guy that does decent work for $80 a holster average. Next important thing is a good belt like a wilderness instructors belt. This is a MUST to work with the holster. If you do not have these two items, carrying the firearm will suck and you will end up not putting it on one day when you will need it.
Second choice would be a thigh holster but this is if you cannot wear a strong side holster.
Anyone with a decent reason can get an ATC. You must prove that you need it.
Anyone in the NW Alberta that needs proficiency testing for the ATC requirements, drop me a pm.
Required reading, Gary Shelton's books.
Greg
Revolver over auto with the exception of a Glock 20 in 10mm with good commercial loads like something from Corbon or hardcast. If revolver, 10mm being on the bottom and as large as you can "realistically practice and shoot often" to become and keep proficient. Probably 44 mag is the best choice here. Most people can handle a 460 once or twice but practicing with it becomes onerous and you will end up not practicing enough to become anywhere near proficient nor keep the proficiency up.
Ruger Redhawk over S&W 629. 4.2" or 5" barrel is the preference.
Now to the carry portion. Strong side, High ride custom leather holster. This is one thing that will allow you to comfortably carry a heavy firearm all day and not notice it. This does not need be a expensive item. I have a guy that does decent work for $80 a holster average. Next important thing is a good belt like a wilderness instructors belt. This is a MUST to work with the holster. If you do not have these two items, carrying the firearm will suck and you will end up not putting it on one day when you will need it.
Second choice would be a thigh holster but this is if you cannot wear a strong side holster.
Anyone with a decent reason can get an ATC. You must prove that you need it.
Anyone in the NW Alberta that needs proficiency testing for the ATC requirements, drop me a pm.
Required reading, Gary Shelton's books.
Greg
Glock 10 doesnt like hard cast bullets unless with aftermarket barrel.
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m0satEkGjw
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A 9mm is no .44 magnum, but it has been used successfully in the bear defense role. Lets compare it to a round many do believe defines the lower limit in handgun power suitable for bear work, the .357 magnum. The .357 in a factory load drives a 158 gr bullet 1200 fps, my handloads drive a 195 gr bullet 1150 fps from my 6" M-27.
Now what does the 9mm do? Again if we compare factory loads, a 124 gr bullet also makes 1200 fps and a 147 about 1000. Either bullet weight with a non-expanding truncated cone bullet should provide pretty good penetration. The difference in diameter between the 9mm (.355") and the .357 (.357") has no effect on wound volume, so if neither bullet expands thus optimizing penetration and is sufficient to exit the target, the wound volumes are equal.
But a 9mm has a miserable reputation as a man stopper, particularly when loaded with non-expanding bullets, never mind stopping an 800-1000 pound bear. But lets define the target. Nothing hand carried will stop a bear reliably with a chest shot. The reason is even though the wound may prove fatal, it takes time for the brain to die from a lack of oxygen. It might take seconds or it might take a few minutes, but when the bear is 10' away, how much time do you think you have? You aren't going to shoot a bear with a handgun unless you have absolutely no choice and you truly face a shoot or die scenario. Your target then is not a half ton of bear, your target is a 100 pound head. A 100 pound target is something a 9mm can deal with quite nicely, and the light recoil means you can get more rounds off in a given time frame than you can with a .357 due to the recoil taking you off target.
Now I own a 9mm and it is not listed on my ATC, which is hardly an endorsement. But I shoot revolvers much more than I do pistols, so I am more comfortable with them. But there is no ballistic reason to suggest that the .357 trumps the 9mm when non-expanding bullets are fired at 1200 fps. The individual who is a competent pistol shot, but is more comfortable with an auto than with a revolver, his level of protection equals mine when he carries a 9mm and I carry my .357.
Last edited:
gene drader
New member
- Location
- Abbotsford B.C.
If you can get a permit I'd suggest a .44 mag in a revolver (S&W or blackhawk) 6 inch or shorter. Semi auto can jam and they are heavy. get a double action revolver not a single action like a 454 casull. They are extremely slow to reload.
A hand gun on your hip is always easy to get access too. A shotgun or rifle is like not being able to reach the toilet paper out in the bush. When you need it bad, it's just out of reach. The big magnums like 454, 500 etc have such a recoil and twist, if you had to shoot with one hand, the gun can twist right out of your hand. Not good if you need a second shot fast. Good luck
A hand gun on your hip is always easy to get access too. A shotgun or rifle is like not being able to reach the toilet paper out in the bush. When you need it bad, it's just out of reach. The big magnums like 454, 500 etc have such a recoil and twist, if you had to shoot with one hand, the gun can twist right out of your hand. Not good if you need a second shot fast. Good luck
Last edited:
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Gene, I'm a revolver guy, but I gotta disagree with you. Most auto pistols weigh under 40 oz, but the revolvers you suggest are closer to 50. As for concerns over semi-autos jamming, that got worked out nearly 100 years ago, and flies in the face of the fact that every cop in the country and many soldiers have one on their hip. When a revolver jams you can have a real problem; because if the jam is caused by a bullet jumping it's crimp in the 11:00 chamber, there is no convenient way to clear it. The gun won't fire and you can't swing out the cylinder to remove the cartridge. If the auto pistol jams, it is usually the result of one of three stoppages: a failure to feed, a stove pipe, or a double feed, all of which are easy to clear if you understand how. In the bear defense scenario fast reloads are seldom an issue; fast shooting can be though, you've either solved the problem with a couple of rounds or you're dead or badly injured. In the case of an attack by a sow with a pair of second year cubs; all that will save you is the grace of God, and some very fast, accurate shooting, possibly backed with fast reloads, where the light recoil, large capacity, and fast reload capability of the semi-auto provides a distinct advantage over any revolver. Fast reloads suggest something other than the individual loading of cartridges, so consider the difference in bulk between a magazine and a speed loader.
The SA revolver is slower to reload than a DA, except that there are tricks to help things along. When you've fired your second round with a SA, the first spent cartridge is now in line with the loading gate, so that round can be quickly exchanged for a fresh cartridge, then you can rotate the cylinder to recharge the second chamber, or if the situation demands, you can continue to fire. Maybe thats why the good guy never ran out of ammo in the old westerns!
I think the durability of the SA trumps any advantage the DA might have, but that's just me and others are free to choose the gun they prefer. Some folks just don't like the SA's handle, and find the stocks of a DA more comfortable. I seem be be the opposite in that the hump of a DA grip frame really pounds my hand under recoil, and the rubber inserts on the SRHs seems to increase the sensation. I agree with your comments concerning the controllability of full power loads in the big bores though.
The 1911 with a 20# recoil spring installed shooting .45-08 cartrdiges is certainly an alternative. You can fire it as fast as a revolver and reloads are significantly faster. A 200 gr LSWC at 1350 fps is no slouch. I intend to apply for a wilderness permit in the spring and that will be the gun I list. We shall see what the CFO has to say.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
I'm also reapplying right away...
I will be listing my 4.25" SRH in 454 Casull & Glock 29 in 10mm...
I run a 26# recoil spring in my Colt Delta Elite 1911 when I load up my top 10mm loads I'm thinking I'd use the same recoil spring in a 45-08...
I will be listing my 4.25" SRH in 454 Casull & Glock 29 in 10mm...
I run a 26# recoil spring in my Colt Delta Elite 1911 when I load up my top 10mm loads I'm thinking I'd use the same recoil spring in a 45-08...
I'm also reapplying right away...
I will be listing my 4.25" SRH in 454 Casull & Glock 29 in 10mm...
I run a 26# recoil spring in my Colt Delta Elite 1911 when I load up my top 10mm loads I'm thinking I'd use the same recoil spring in a 45-08...
Is BC approving Semi-auto's again?
I would get something crazy. Crazy Awesome that is. If I was in your situation and I could a pistol for carry in the bush to protect yourself from something that would find your butt cheeks tasty I would get something like a Desert Eagle. They come in .357 magnum with a 9 round magazine or a .44 magnum with a 8 round magazine.
Imagine a semi automatic handgun that fires 44 magnum and has a 8 round magazine.
This gun would make Pee Wee Herman feel like he was Ron Jeremy.
Imagine a semi automatic handgun that fires 44 magnum and has a 8 round magazine.
This gun would make Pee Wee Herman feel like he was Ron Jeremy.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The Desert Eagle's a joke and a movie gun. Awfully heavy, large, and prone to problems when it gets a little gritty due to the gas powered action. I've found them not to be reliable either, though this could be the individual gun, I was not impressed.
I second Ardents comment...
When packing a handgun all day power/weight should be considered that is why I feel my 4.25" SRH in 454 Casull is the most powerful/lightest all day day carry handgun available.
S&W 460/500 have the power I would prefer but they are far to heavy to pack around all day the Desert Eagle is in the same category too me...
When packing a handgun all day power/weight should be considered that is why I feel my 4.25" SRH in 454 Casull is the most powerful/lightest all day day carry handgun available.
S&W 460/500 have the power I would prefer but they are far to heavy to pack around all day the Desert Eagle is in the same category too me...
Would you please report back here the outcome. You will likely be applying for yours before I submit my application.
Take Care
Bob
