I seriously wonder what the legal definition of conceal is, because the dictionary definition says that if concealment is not successful, it is not concealment.
Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection
- Thread starter Win 38-55
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I seriously wonder what the legal definition of conceal is, because the dictionary definition says that if concealment is not successful, it is not concealment.
What idiotic screwed up paranoid laws we have in this country that a man can't keep a pistol on his hip for protection (of animals even). I read the early post of why the OP said he needed one and I agree 100%. I own rifles, shotguns, handguns, etc. and for the life of me I can't see why our government fears a man in the bush with a handgun over a man with a .50 BMG semi-auto bullpup rifle (non-restricted of course).
so that Wendy and her masters can say there's no legitimate use for handguns in civilian hands.
This thread just took away a few hours of my life I can't get back.
I do a lot of Bow Hunting with longbows and recurves in Bear and Cougar country. There are also the odd Grizzly there, but we have not met any yet.I hope we don't meet.
I have no interest in shooting a Bear or Cougar with any weapon and do not feel threatened by coyotes or wolves.
I have considered the comefort of having a gun along, but the weight and nuisance has always stoped me.
I also like calling Elk fron Blinds, and we use a lot of cow, and calf calls .
This has had me seriously re thinking the chance of an unwanted responder.
An Antique Handgun came to mind after reading some threads on this and other diferent forums, but doing some serious thought I am not sure about it anymore.
First, is it going to be realy efective other than the noise to scare off the critter ? The Balistics don't seem all that impressive, even for the converted antiques, unless I am missing something.
Second , The prices seem to be rediculously high, for a gun that quite possibly if used would make things go south in a hurry.
Third , The questionable, legalities if the ANTIQUE was discovered, for what ever reason, would be a nightmare to get thru. Legal fee's, lost wages , would be cripiling even if you win.And if you loose ,you don't want to think about that.
There has to be a better solution , I hope. Bear spray in a pop up blind is a bad idea, Just like spraying it into the wind.
Although informative,and enlightening the thread has also been confusing .
Thanks for the good reading.
Pete
I do a lot of Bow Hunting with longbows and recurves in Bear and Cougar country. There are also the odd Grizzly there, but we have not met any yet.I hope we don't meet.
I have no interest in shooting a Bear or Cougar with any weapon and do not feel threatened by coyotes or wolves.
I have considered the comefort of having a gun along, but the weight and nuisance has always stoped me.
I also like calling Elk fron Blinds, and we use a lot of cow, and calf calls .
This has had me seriously re thinking the chance of an unwanted responder.
An Antique Handgun came to mind after reading some threads on this and other diferent forums, but doing some serious thought I am not sure about it anymore.
First, is it going to be realy efective other than the noise to scare off the critter ? The Balistics don't seem all that impressive, even for the converted antiques, unless I am missing something.
Second , The prices seem to be rediculously high, for a gun that quite possibly if used would make things go south in a hurry.
Third , The questionable, legalities if the ANTIQUE was discovered, for what ever reason, would be a nightmare to get thru. Legal fee's, lost wages , would be cripiling even if you win.And if you loose ,you don't want to think about that.
There has to be a better solution , I hope. Bear spray in a pop up blind is a bad idea, Just like spraying it into the wind.
Although informative,and enlightening the thread has also been confusing .
Thanks for the good reading.
Pete
As soon as you conceal a antique pistol it turns in to a modern handgun according to the law, and we can't do that, just like if you took your antique pistol out to the field and shot at targets... all fine. but shoot at a duck or fox and then you are hunting and that you can not do, it turns your antique pistol to a modern handgun according to the law. You can not hunt in Canada with a handgun. So don't break the law.
bear spray
On a walk with his wife and two dogs, a friend was recently attacked by a black bear.
One of the dogs came running back to them with a bear in hot pursuit. When it got to him, it reared up on it's hind legs and took a swipe at him which he warded off with his forearm. He has the claw marks to prove it.
The dogs began worrying the bear, nipping at it's hocks, his wife screaming at the top of her lungs. The dogs distracted the bear and it took off. He was wearing a can of bear spray.
He says the speed and ferocity of the attack astounded him and he's an experienced woodsman. He didn't have time to deploy the spray. I asked him if a pistol would have been and aid and he laughed.
Imagine the cartoon image of a melee with dogs and bear in dust up, a screaming woman ..... where do you shoot? The scratches on his arm were not serious, but he might have been injured to the point where he couldn't have drawn and fired a gun had he been wearing one.
A guy who lives south of me gained some notoriety by clubbing a sow bear to death after it attacked him and his dog. He felt bear spray would have been useless.
On a walk with his wife and two dogs, a friend was recently attacked by a black bear.
One of the dogs came running back to them with a bear in hot pursuit. When it got to him, it reared up on it's hind legs and took a swipe at him which he warded off with his forearm. He has the claw marks to prove it.
The dogs began worrying the bear, nipping at it's hocks, his wife screaming at the top of her lungs. The dogs distracted the bear and it took off. He was wearing a can of bear spray.
He says the speed and ferocity of the attack astounded him and he's an experienced woodsman. He didn't have time to deploy the spray. I asked him if a pistol would have been and aid and he laughed.
Imagine the cartoon image of a melee with dogs and bear in dust up, a screaming woman ..... where do you shoot? The scratches on his arm were not serious, but he might have been injured to the point where he couldn't have drawn and fired a gun had he been wearing one.
A guy who lives south of me gained some notoriety by clubbing a sow bear to death after it attacked him and his dog. He felt bear spray would have been useless.
Jack Brock
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Whats it for? And if they give him the answer he's fishing for wham!! charged, entrapment. Sounds like your friend is an #######. If he has a call from a complaint thats different but just to entrap someone for no reason well I have said enough.
J
J
My copy of the Ontario regs say that that only restricted or prohibited handguns are not permitted. air pistols with a muzzle velocity less than 152m/s are allowed. interesting
here we go again ....
I was recently present at a discussion where an 'antique' carry question was posed to two serving RCMP members. Call it an exercise in futility as they know nothing about 'antique' status of handguns - period.
This is typical of most LEOs one would encounter in the boonies. You are going to have to prove your case in court and fight to a) get your gun back, and b) perhaps ALL your guns.
Concealed, open carry, flap holster, original calibre, rebarreled/rechambered to a modern calibre ... yadda, yadda, yadda .... until someone becomes a test case, it's a tempest in a tea pot.
Anyone who would risk losing the gun and perhaps his 'antique' status is a fool.
If you really need (or think you need to pack a gun in the boonies) get a placer miner or timber cruiser qualification. Then there is a 'shall issue' clause - IF you can prove it is a source of income or your livelihood.
Or do it discreetly - out of sight, out of mind. This isn't counselling you to break the law. People disregard unjust, illogical laws all the time. It isn't a crime until you're caught in the act. Ever get a speeding ticket?
In the cases where I have knowledge of bear attacks, the individuals had no time to deploy spray (REALLY useful against an enraged, charging bear!) or draw a pistol. With others present, dogs, etc., it's a melee of snarling fury, fangs and claws.
Hunters with high powered rifles have died trying to defend themselves and companions from bear attacks. If you go out there, it's part of the risk. Can't deal with it? - stay the hell out of the bush! Or wear bells so trackers can find the bear that ate you.
I was recently present at a discussion where an 'antique' carry question was posed to two serving RCMP members. Call it an exercise in futility as they know nothing about 'antique' status of handguns - period.
This is typical of most LEOs one would encounter in the boonies. You are going to have to prove your case in court and fight to a) get your gun back, and b) perhaps ALL your guns.
Concealed, open carry, flap holster, original calibre, rebarreled/rechambered to a modern calibre ... yadda, yadda, yadda .... until someone becomes a test case, it's a tempest in a tea pot.
Anyone who would risk losing the gun and perhaps his 'antique' status is a fool.
If you really need (or think you need to pack a gun in the boonies) get a placer miner or timber cruiser qualification. Then there is a 'shall issue' clause - IF you can prove it is a source of income or your livelihood.
Or do it discreetly - out of sight, out of mind. This isn't counselling you to break the law. People disregard unjust, illogical laws all the time. It isn't a crime until you're caught in the act. Ever get a speeding ticket?
In the cases where I have knowledge of bear attacks, the individuals had no time to deploy spray (REALLY useful against an enraged, charging bear!) or draw a pistol. With others present, dogs, etc., it's a melee of snarling fury, fangs and claws.
Hunters with high powered rifles have died trying to defend themselves and companions from bear attacks. If you go out there, it's part of the risk. Can't deal with it? - stay the hell out of the bush! Or wear bells so trackers can find the bear that ate you.
<http://www.kramerleather.com/products.cfm?categoryID=34>
Dam thats nice!! i am going to order one!
There are many cases where there was simply no time to react to the initial attack. There are also many cases where there was time, and if the victim or the victim's companion had a firearm, the death could have been prevented. Consider, for example, the case of the woman who was killed by a Black Bear up near Chapleau a few years ago, not far from where I had taken my wife and kids on a camping/canoeing trip on crown land. Her husband had plenty of time to get out his little knife and start hacking and stabbing. Eventually, he was able to drive off the bear, but only after his wife was dead and he was severely wounded.
My point is that because in many of the cases there is no time to react, we don't therefore throw up our hands and forget about carrying some form of defense for the other times when there is time to react.
Having said that, there will still be a significant percentage of people who simply become immobilized with fright, but there are others that won't. I spent many hours in my teen years in the chute and in confined pens with 1,000 pound, half wild cattle that hadn't seen a human since last spring, and I learned something about big animals ...... focus on the head and forget about the rest of the animal. It is all about the head. Do not get distracted by a thousand pounds of bone and muscle charging toward you, it's all about the head. I know how I will react when a thousand pound animal is trampling my partner with bones a-splintering, because I've been there and stopped it. The rest of the world ceases to exist, time stops and everything becomes extremely simplified. Take the head and the rest of the animal is irrelevant.
So maybe 50% of the time you may not have a chance to react, but for the times that you do, focus on the head, draw your 44 Russian or 45 Schofield, smash the muzzle into the bear's head as you pull the trigger and see if a 250 grain bullet at 800 fps will hurt the head in time to save your life, or the life of your wife or child. I have spent literally thousands of hours in the bush and have had several unpleasant encounters with Black Bears in the wild and in every case I had time to either grab my knife or #### my rifle and point it in the bear's face, even if the bear's face was, in one case, at a range of only 2 feet by the time I got the rifle up and the hammer pulled back.
For most of us who head into the remote wilderness only once or twice a year, proving I get a source of income or livelihood from placer mining, prospecting or cruising timber is not going to happen. So as a man responsible for the safety of myself and the people with me, I do what I legally can to provide the best security of the person I can.
One other observation I have made in these discussions. Some fellows think that you cannot do activity X until the law explicitly says you can do activity X. That is not how the law works. To get charged, you have to break a law. You cannot be charged for breaking a non-existent law, nor can there be a test case for carrying a non-firearm (according to the law) in the wilderness, but you can get charged if the officer thinks you are breaking the law, even though the charge will be immediately dropped when it becomes evident no law is being broken. So here is the solution as I see it ....
1. Have a copy of the part of the law relative to antique guns
2. Have a copy of the part of the law that states that antique guns are not a firearm.
3. Have a copy of your RCMP letter or another antique letter.
4. Know that an antique non-firearm becomes a firearm if it is concealed, so don't conceal your antique non-firearm.
5. Do not pack your antique in a location where others may see you and become alarmed. You are not concealing it, you are being discreet for the purpose of not alarming anyone. Those are two different things. I generally keep mine locked in its case until I'm sufficiently deep into the wilderness.
6. If you happen to encounter an officer of the law in the wilderness, calmly and politely inform him/her that you have the proper papers for your antique. Don't try to explain anything at that very moment, just inform him/her that you have the papers on your person. If you have an arrogant, in your face attitude, you will make things more difficult for yourself.
7. He/she will ask to see the papers.
8. You produce the papers mentioned in (1), (2) and (3).
9. Having produced the above, the officer will have no legitimate grounds to charge you or interfere with your activities unless you are doing something else that is illegal. The officer may ask a few questions to clarify things. Answer the questions politely and clearly, but don't blather on at the mouth.
10. In the worst cast scenario where the officer decides to ignore what the law states and insists on charging you for what I do not know, in spite of the fact that you have produced the appropriate sections of the law and the proof of the antique's status, it is the officer who will have a problem. In that case, I would drop by the crown attorney's office and, in my experience in another matter, they will recommend to the officer that the charge be immediately dropped and he/she will drop it because he/she will know that such a recommendation means that the charge will not stand. I would do something else, however. I would file a formal complaint with Police Services against that officer who falsely charged you even after you had produced the proper papers and sections of the law. There will be an investigation against that officer.
If I were to sum everything up in a sentence, I would say enjoy your antiques in a safe and responsible way, while exercising discretion so as not to alarm the uninformed or cause a problem for yourself that could easily have been avoided. Apart from historical re-enactments, if a fellow insists on swaggering downtown with his Brown Bess or his flintlock pistol, then he is a fool who should immediately get rid of his antiques and find something safer to do, like stamp collecting or something. He may also wish to book an appointment with a psychologist.
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put up or .....
Maybe where you live a LEO is going to ask you for your letter of 'antique' status. Most likely you are going to be told to put your hands behind your head, kneel and then prostrate yourself - at gun point.
I don't disagree with your dissertation. I would very much like to hear from you and others just how you fared in the real world after a LEO or citizen takes umbrage with your open carry 'antique'.
You have a lot of faith in the attitude of today's LEOs regarding handguns in private hands, 'antique' or otherwise.
Maybe where you live a LEO is going to ask you for your letter of 'antique' status. Most likely you are going to be told to put your hands behind your head, kneel and then prostrate yourself - at gun point.
I don't disagree with your dissertation. I would very much like to hear from you and others just how you fared in the real world after a LEO or citizen takes umbrage with your open carry 'antique'.
You have a lot of faith in the attitude of today's LEOs regarding handguns in private hands, 'antique' or otherwise.
Sharps 63, I wouldn't wait until I was asked. The longer you wait before informing a LEO that you have the papers for your antique, the more likely it is you will be experiencing the scenario you envisioned. I would suggest being proactive by informing the LEO that you have documentation before he has to ask or even sees that you have an antique. However, if you do find yourself face down on the ground with your nose firmly planted in the Pine needles in some remote wilderness location, you can still politely and calmly carry out step (6) above.
yes your Right Win 38 55... again!
I think Its alot about how you act and if your up front and not trying to be sneaky.
Lotsa guys do pack handguns in the bush with permits so the frist reaction of a cop is not going to be throw you on the ground unless your doing something to cause him to think he is in some danger or someone else is.
I agree with everything Win 38 55 has said in theses last few posts very well writen and right to boot.
I pack my best antique handguns in the bush all the time its better than waveing your stick in the air. a Keith SWC doing + 800 FPS is gona do plenty of damage if you can get a chance to place your shot.
in 40 +years of walking around in the bush in B.C i never yet ran into a police officer yet, but i seen plenty of bears and other criters on my trapline and elsewhere.
not saying it couldnt happen tomorrow but if it did im prepared with all the rules and stuff and my RCMP letters ive collected .
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