Dangerous game short range match. The challenge is on!
- Thread starter geologist
- Start date
I use the charging bear target regularly when I do yearly staff certifications at work, lots of fun and it adds a bit of difficulty. Riflechair had some video posted a while back of their Ranger bear defence shoot as well.bbartsch said:
Cheers
Hey guys how do you all feel about kneeling when firing at a target that is closing range fast? My humble opinion is that as long as visibility permits firing from a kneeling position removes the tracking portion of the equation. I also figure it puts you in a better postion to survive the intial impact with the teeth and claws if you don't shoot as well as Cam. i.e your rifle and arms are in postion to take the blow and your soft squishy parts are not so exposed.
I don't want to get off topic here but I am interested to hear your thoughts and to see if any one is choosing a kneeling postion for this competition.
I don't want to get off topic here but I am interested to hear your thoughts and to see if any one is choosing a kneeling postion for this competition.
Under stress, you always do whatever you did in training. So I kneel most of the time for this scenario.
I kneel so that I am less likely to shoot over/behind on the approaching beastie. I'd rather run a 300 grain solid horizontally through the length of the animal than angle through or possible shoot behind.
Shelton makes the point that he learned early in his career that charging bears move up and down as they approach. Get as low as you can and aim for centre of mass.
Boomer, that was way cool man. I gotta try that. Looks like it's time to head up Sylvester Road with a couple of buddies.
I kneel so that I am less likely to shoot over/behind on the approaching beastie. I'd rather run a 300 grain solid horizontally through the length of the animal than angle through or possible shoot behind.
Shelton makes the point that he learned early in his career that charging bears move up and down as they approach. Get as low as you can and aim for centre of mass.
Boomer, that was way cool man. I gotta try that. Looks like it's time to head up Sylvester Road with a couple of buddies.
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At risk of goiing OT:
Geo is right, a charging bear moves vertically about a foot. It is something to behold when you are on the wrong end
The main issue I have with kneeling is that you have to change your position from standing to kneeling. When you only have precious few seconds to react and shoot a charging bear why would you waste any of that time kneeling instead of shooting? Also if you kneel you are less mobile and unable to move if needed as it closes in. Another consideration...rounds angled downward are less likely to travel far or stray than ones going parallel to the ground.....something else to think about if you work with others.
That's just my opinion, yours may vary and I am not saying mine is better or worse.
A good test of the difference in response time to a charge is to start with rifle/shotgun in field carry position (rounds in mag but not in chamber) start position is standing at low ready. On the start signal (Start of target charging) fire as many rounds into target as you can before it gets to you. The time it takes to kneel is time lost shooting. I'll have to try both ways just to see what difference it does make.
Cheers
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....
Geo is right, a charging bear moves vertically about a foot. It is something to behold when you are on the wrong end
The main issue I have with kneeling is that you have to change your position from standing to kneeling. When you only have precious few seconds to react and shoot a charging bear why would you waste any of that time kneeling instead of shooting? Also if you kneel you are less mobile and unable to move if needed as it closes in. Another consideration...rounds angled downward are less likely to travel far or stray than ones going parallel to the ground.....something else to think about if you work with others.
That's just my opinion, yours may vary and I am not saying mine is better or worse.
A good test of the difference in response time to a charge is to start with rifle/shotgun in field carry position (rounds in mag but not in chamber) start position is standing at low ready. On the start signal (Start of target charging) fire as many rounds into target as you can before it gets to you. The time it takes to kneel is time lost shooting. I'll have to try both ways just to see what difference it does make.
Cheers
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....
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troutseeker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Prince George, BC
My new to mw 45/70 should be here soon. I'll get out and try it with the Marlin, my 870 and my Ruger Redhawk .44 mag 5 inch barrel.
Troutseeker
Troutseeker
- Location
- AB foothills
Ike said:At risk of goiing OT:
Geo is right, a charging bear moves vertically about a foot. It is something to behold when you are on the wrong end
The main issue I have with kneeling is that you have to change your position from standing to kneeling. When you only have precious few seconds to react and shoot a charging bear why would you waste any of that time kneeling instead of shooting? Also if you kneel you are less mobile and unable to move if needed as it closes in.
That's just my opinion, yours may vary and I am not saying mine is better or worse.
A good test of the difference in response time to a charge is to start with rifle/shotgun in field carry position (rounds in mag but not in chamber) start position is standing at low ready. On the start signal (Start of target charging) fire as many rounds into target as you can before it gets to you. The time it takes to kneel is time lost shooting. I'll have to try both ways just to see what difference it does make.
Cheers
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....
I have been on the recieving end of a pissed off mamma grizz, 40 yards happens in a very few seconds. I dont think most people understand how fast it can actually happen. It happens so fast that most of us would never get a shot off if our rifle were over our shoulder.
No time to kneel down, when they are pissed and charging seconds count. In a situation like that, which is the most realistic, you had better have lots of practice shooting off hand and be fast at it.
I always spend my practice time shooting off hand, IMO if you spend the seconds or second needed to find a place to kneel while a pissed off bear is charging I hope you like the smell of being in a pine box.......
JMO
- Location
- AB foothills
Ike said:
I agree! My underwear have never forgiven me
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Ike said:
Fun no, memorable yes!
I agree the kneeling position will put the bullet on a horizontal track resulting in the maximum tissue destruction. On the negative side, if kneeling you are in a position you cannot move quickly from. In bear language size matters. If you make yourself appear smaller, the bear might be encouraged to commit to an attack. Lastly, tissue destruction alone will not end the attack, you need to break bone or disrupt the CNS.
I had a situation develop with a large male polar bear. He was on a rock outcrop above us (I had my kids with me) and came on the run down hill towards us. There was a gravel slope on that side of the outcrop, that he came down - astonishingly quickly. We held our ground, and I picked a stick on the ground as my line in the sand about 30 feet from where I stood. Many people say once a polar bear commits to a charge he won't change his mind. This guy did - when he put his paw on my line in the sand he stopped looked us over, then turned and ambled back up into the rocks. I had a single shot Cooey 12 gauge loaded with 3" Federals. If I had shot I am confident with his down hill momentum he'd of had us - well me anyway because I made sure the boys were behind me. Did he back off because I stood rather than knelt? I don't really know, but he may of. I paid attention to the lessons learned on that summer day 17 years ago.
The point is that you must use the shooting position which makes the most sense for the circumstances. Shooting early is no advantage - except for my pal Pounder who often has a number of unarmed tourists in tow. In his circumstance he simply cannot allow a bear to close within 100'. For the rest of us, the closer the animal, the surer your bullet placement. His vertical movement becomes less important as he closes. At very close range, is a supported position better? Well, for some folks it might be, but I believe the disadvantages out weigh the advantages. When you shoot from standing, if you have his head centered, and if you hit too far back you've got his spine and maybe shoulders. With a powerful rifle and a good bullet, that will rug him.
I agree with shooting from both the kneeling and standing positions... both have their merrits...
I probably wouldn't do the kneeling for the reasons Ike mentioned as well as when I have a bear charging me I am not thinking about kneeling my mind set is on shooting as well as kneeling hasn't been part of my shooting practices so doesn't come natural to me... I'm sure if I had included it in my training I would use that method a lot more...
The only time that I shot a black bear charging towards me that was on level ground was with me in a standing position. I shot it with a 308 Norma Mag with 180gr Norma yellow tip bullets at a max 10 to 12 yards from me hitting it just forward of it's left shoulder and exiting out the other side thru the right shoulder. The bears head hit the ground and it did a somersault instantly but even though it was down it still tried to crawl. I shot it one more time in the neck and it was over.
The interesting thing for me was that I didn't have time to get excited, I just did what had to be done. If I was to be in this kind of an encounter again I would do it the same way... I only had time to shot not to think...
I don't think I've mentioned this before but I am starting to loose the vision in my right eye (the eye I aim with) I see at the very best 20/40 out of it with corrective lenses now. I actually stopped shooting Cowboy Action Shooting because I couldn't see the rifle sights good enough anymore...
In order to combat against this vision loss I have had to change to either more powerful variable scopes eg; if I had been using a 1x-4x I have switched to 2x-7x or ghost ring sights.
So when you see me shooting in the video clips for example the target is actually a blur to me because of this I don't shoot as accurately as I used to...
edit to add...
Good stories guys it is always interesting to read about others encounters...
I probably wouldn't do the kneeling for the reasons Ike mentioned as well as when I have a bear charging me I am not thinking about kneeling my mind set is on shooting as well as kneeling hasn't been part of my shooting practices so doesn't come natural to me... I'm sure if I had included it in my training I would use that method a lot more...
The only time that I shot a black bear charging towards me that was on level ground was with me in a standing position. I shot it with a 308 Norma Mag with 180gr Norma yellow tip bullets at a max 10 to 12 yards from me hitting it just forward of it's left shoulder and exiting out the other side thru the right shoulder. The bears head hit the ground and it did a somersault instantly but even though it was down it still tried to crawl. I shot it one more time in the neck and it was over.
The interesting thing for me was that I didn't have time to get excited, I just did what had to be done. If I was to be in this kind of an encounter again I would do it the same way... I only had time to shot not to think...
I don't think I've mentioned this before but I am starting to loose the vision in my right eye (the eye I aim with) I see at the very best 20/40 out of it with corrective lenses now. I actually stopped shooting Cowboy Action Shooting because I couldn't see the rifle sights good enough anymore...
In order to combat against this vision loss I have had to change to either more powerful variable scopes eg; if I had been using a 1x-4x I have switched to 2x-7x or ghost ring sights.
So when you see me shooting in the video clips for example the target is actually a blur to me because of this I don't shoot as accurately as I used to...
edit to add...
Good stories guys it is always interesting to read about others encounters...
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Camp Cook -
Degenerating eyesight would certainly be depressing, but for the time being you seem to be doing just fine, and better than most. As time goes by I am sure you will increasingly use an instinctive shooting technique. Once your cheek hits the stock, or once you bring your pistol into line, your muscle memory will tell you when your sights are aligned. You may of decided that you are no longer competitive in the cowboy action events, but I believe that these are useful drills for real world situations, and I believe you should reconsider giving up that style of shooting.
Degenerating eyesight would certainly be depressing, but for the time being you seem to be doing just fine, and better than most. As time goes by I am sure you will increasingly use an instinctive shooting technique. Once your cheek hits the stock, or once you bring your pistol into line, your muscle memory will tell you when your sights are aligned. You may of decided that you are no longer competitive in the cowboy action events, but I believe that these are useful drills for real world situations, and I believe you should reconsider giving up that style of shooting.
bears
Most of our encounters up here are curiousity, these bears think that if it moves or smells it might be food, however once they figure out what you are they generaly move away. The most dangerious ones are the subadult males ( teenage boys),they tend to approch closer and more aggressively,cracker shells usually change his mind.
pounder
pic won't work ##**^%$#@
IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/pounderyyq/IMG_2097.jpg[/IMG]
Most of our encounters up here are curiousity, these bears think that if it moves or smells it might be food, however once they figure out what you are they generaly move away. The most dangerious ones are the subadult males ( teenage boys),they tend to approch closer and more aggressively,cracker shells usually change his mind.pounder
pic won't work ##**^%$#@
IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/pounderyyq/IMG_2097.jpg[/IMG]
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Cam pretty good shooting for bad eyes at that. The nice thing about a lever action is that you can shoot it left hand too, have you ever tried that?
I am lucky and shoot ambidextrously equally well. For fun I make the troops shoot weak hand on some requal stages, it is a good laugh to watch until they get the muscle memory and a good lesson for them too.
Back to the orginal topic I am trying to get out with my buddy, my 870 and his new 45/70 Friday so will have some results to post this weekend....hopefully.
Cheers
I am lucky and shoot ambidextrously equally well. For fun I make the troops shoot weak hand on some requal stages, it is a good laugh to watch until they get the muscle memory and a good lesson for them too.
Back to the orginal topic I am trying to get out with my buddy, my 870 and his new 45/70 Friday so will have some results to post this weekend....hopefully.
Cheers
Thanks for the thoughts guys...
I hope that it never comes to having to retrain as a lefty because I am definately not ambidextrus....
Don't get me wrong I can shoot ok left handed already it just feels so totally weird and slow...
Handguns I don't have a problem with because I just twist my head around a bit more and use my left eye...
Scoped rifles I have move up in scope magnification eg; I used to use a 1x-4x now a 2x-7x scope or 3x-9x now 4x-12x or 4.5x-14x.
When I wrote about my vision earlier it really wasn't complaining it was more along the lines of I would have grouped better if I could have seen the target clearly......
I hope that it never comes to having to retrain as a lefty because I am definately not ambidextrus....
Don't get me wrong I can shoot ok left handed already it just feels so totally weird and slow...
Handguns I don't have a problem with because I just twist my head around a bit more and use my left eye...
Scoped rifles I have move up in scope magnification eg; I used to use a 1x-4x now a 2x-7x scope or 3x-9x now 4x-12x or 4.5x-14x.
When I wrote about my vision earlier it really wasn't complaining it was more along the lines of I would have grouped better if I could have seen the target clearly......
