There is nothing magical about the 6.5CM. It does what the 6.5x55 has been doing for decades.
Haha yes, a decade of decades… plus.
Do you really need a magnum
- Thread starter Isobar1999
- Start date
Haha yes, a decade of decades… plus.
And for the main stream consumer does that brief millisecond it takes to cycle a long action over a short matter? Or is the the milligrams of weight?
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
You're right, the CMs do have some some very real advantages over the older cartridges they replicate but Joe Average Hunter Guy doesn't appreciate or make use of them. I like older classic cartridges but did choose the 6mmCM over the older 243s for those advantages you are referring to.
I just don't think the CM was the death knell of the magnums.
My understanding is that the definition of a magnum is a relative one. For a given caliber, a magnum is a cartridge with higher loading capacity and therefore higher velocity, quite often above 3000 fps, when compared with a standard cartridge.
In the .308 caliber, the 300 win mag is magnum when compared with the standard 30-06. For a standard 180 grains, the 300 win mag pushes it at above 3000 fps.
The same can be said for the 7 mm rem Mag when compared with the 7x57 for the standard 140 grains. likewise for the 264 mag and the 6.5x55 and 140 grains bullet. Etc...
The case of the 270 win is worth considering. It was conceived to shoot a 130 bullet at 3150 fps, already at high pressure and "magnum velocity". Not much magnum development has happened in the 0.277 caliber when compared to other calibers.
Therefore the definition of magnum is only valid within the range of a given caliber, it is not valid for comparison among different calibers.
Recoil does not define magnums. Recoil can be reduced significantly with muzzlebreaks while maintaining velocity.
In the .308 caliber, the 300 win mag is magnum when compared with the standard 30-06. For a standard 180 grains, the 300 win mag pushes it at above 3000 fps.
The same can be said for the 7 mm rem Mag when compared with the 7x57 for the standard 140 grains. likewise for the 264 mag and the 6.5x55 and 140 grains bullet. Etc...
The case of the 270 win is worth considering. It was conceived to shoot a 130 bullet at 3150 fps, already at high pressure and "magnum velocity". Not much magnum development has happened in the 0.277 caliber when compared to other calibers.
Therefore the definition of magnum is only valid within the range of a given caliber, it is not valid for comparison among different calibers.
Recoil does not define magnums. Recoil can be reduced significantly with muzzlebreaks while maintaining velocity.
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I don’t know if those are even as advantages, the creedmoor is just designed to suit modern trends. Pretending the 6.5x55 is the same thing ignores the whole reason it was designed and marketed. Even if we are now happily arguing about if it is a good hunting round it was explicitly designed for target shooting.
The average “mainstream consumer” is not a 65 year old Canadian hunter. The creed fits a short action AI magazine and can be easily chambered in AR rifles, I doubt that bolt throw and “ milligrams of weight” factored into the design at all.
The average “mainstream consumer” is not a 65 year old Canadian hunter. The creed fits a short action AI magazine and can be easily chambered in AR rifles, I doubt that bolt throw and “ milligrams of weight” factored into the design at all.
Yes, you nailed it here, marketing. It’s the biggest thing the cartridge has going for it.
For the point of this discussion it has nothing over the 6.5x55. Whether the round fits into an AI mag if we wanted it to, even if we don’t use them, or into a rifle we can’t buy is irrelevant. We are talking strictly about performance.
Discussions are always fun.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
The real answer is "It depends" for a lot of people they will never hunt more than 100 miles from home and I would guess that the overwhelming majority won't go more than 500 miles. So that leaves most people with a very geographically-influenced sense of an "all-around" rifle. If I wasn't going to leave 100 miles of my home in central NS I probably would never take out anything but my 7x57 for deer and bear. If I stretched it out to 500 then you would include Cape Breton for moose which would open the door to more open country and and potentially longer shots. Then I would probably still only opt for a 30-06 though I could start to convince myself that I might want more reach. But overall, your typical one-rifle hunter wouldn't feel the need to go with a magnum.
If I was back out in Central Alberta or the NWT or Nunavut I would probably be more inclined to use my 7 Weatherby or my 300 H&H. Especially if I thought I was going to be out in open country. Even in BC if I was hunting anywhere North of Hope I would likely opt for a magnum, again, assuming that I was a typical one-rifle hunter. The likelihood of getting in on a moose or elk hunt, or wanting to reach out in sheep country, would definitely influence my decision.
I should add that I've never been a fan of marginal cartridges. Many people have had great success with things like the 243 and the 6.5 family, but they have always struck me as more geared towards specialists rather than generalists. Blacktails? Sure. Close country Eastern Whitetails? Absolutely. Moose and Elk? If you're in the 1% that dedicates enough time to practicing and knowledge of animal anatomy then you could do it, but for the average person they just aren't the right tool for the job. Now this is where all the armchair ballisticians and internet hunters start clamoring that I'm nothing but an old Fudd and I am out of touch with current rifle trends. OK, I will admit that I tend towards the "more than enough gun" side of the argument, but I am also fairly certain that the majority of people simply can't shoot well enough to use these cartridges at extended ranges that are all being touted today. Frankly, most people don't have any business shooting past 200 yards from a field position, and even less so with a marginal case. A friend of mine did a cow elk hunt in Wyoming with the new 6 ARC. It worked, but he's a dedicated shooter and was hunting at close range only. And his partner has a 7RM in case things didn't work out so well.
If I was back out in Central Alberta or the NWT or Nunavut I would probably be more inclined to use my 7 Weatherby or my 300 H&H. Especially if I thought I was going to be out in open country. Even in BC if I was hunting anywhere North of Hope I would likely opt for a magnum, again, assuming that I was a typical one-rifle hunter. The likelihood of getting in on a moose or elk hunt, or wanting to reach out in sheep country, would definitely influence my decision.
I should add that I've never been a fan of marginal cartridges. Many people have had great success with things like the 243 and the 6.5 family, but they have always struck me as more geared towards specialists rather than generalists. Blacktails? Sure. Close country Eastern Whitetails? Absolutely. Moose and Elk? If you're in the 1% that dedicates enough time to practicing and knowledge of animal anatomy then you could do it, but for the average person they just aren't the right tool for the job. Now this is where all the armchair ballisticians and internet hunters start clamoring that I'm nothing but an old Fudd and I am out of touch with current rifle trends. OK, I will admit that I tend towards the "more than enough gun" side of the argument, but I am also fairly certain that the majority of people simply can't shoot well enough to use these cartridges at extended ranges that are all being touted today. Frankly, most people don't have any business shooting past 200 yards from a field position, and even less so with a marginal case. A friend of mine did a cow elk hunt in Wyoming with the new 6 ARC. It worked, but he's a dedicated shooter and was hunting at close range only. And his partner has a 7RM in case things didn't work out so well.
Sounds like you’re having a discussion with yourself or an imaginary opponent southcountry. Snarky comments aside you seem to be aware this is a discussion board…
I will likely never own an AI mag rifle, a semi or a 6.5 creedmoor.
I don’t even care about short action cartridges with the exception of rifles that really take advantage of the smaller round in their design like the kimber 84m or model 7. Even then I have a strong, totally sentimental and unrelated to performance preference for classic chamberings.
I agree with you totally about mms of bolt throw and over all rifle length, makes not a lick of difference for MY purposes. I am not the average consumer and absolutely not the average consumer in my age group.
The fudd cry of “ just a 6.5x55” is simply not true. The design of the creed fills different criteria. Yes it is all to do with trends and marketing, I am not a proponent of the round at all. Our opinions mean nothing; the marketing is so successful for a reason. People like VLD bullets, AI mags and long range target shooting these days. No accounting for taste
If it was all about what works and bolt action hunting rifles the 6.5 creed would be playing second fiddle to the 270 win and 6.5x55 Swede.
I will likely never own an AI mag rifle, a semi or a 6.5 creedmoor.
I don’t even care about short action cartridges with the exception of rifles that really take advantage of the smaller round in their design like the kimber 84m or model 7. Even then I have a strong, totally sentimental and unrelated to performance preference for classic chamberings.
I agree with you totally about mms of bolt throw and over all rifle length, makes not a lick of difference for MY purposes. I am not the average consumer and absolutely not the average consumer in my age group.
The fudd cry of “ just a 6.5x55” is simply not true. The design of the creed fills different criteria. Yes it is all to do with trends and marketing, I am not a proponent of the round at all. Our opinions mean nothing; the marketing is so successful for a reason. People like VLD bullets, AI mags and long range target shooting these days. No accounting for taste
If it was all about what works and bolt action hunting rifles the 6.5 creed would be playing second fiddle to the 270 win and 6.5x55 Swede.
Haha, that imaginary opponent keeps responding. I am sorry you find the comments snarky. I was just pointing out that your original comment that the 6.5 was superior to the 6.5x55 because it fit in a short action was irrelevant to this discussion. If I mistook the intent of your comment that’s my bad.
I never said it was superior, I said it was different and listed some of the reasons for its design
Still working on reading comprehension I see
As I said
“ I don’t know if those are even advantages, the creedmoor is just designed to suit modern trends.”
And it seems we agree totally, for our purposes these criteria are not relevant and hold no advantages in the kind of rifles we prefer to use
Still working on reading comprehension I see
As I said
“ I don’t know if those are even advantages, the creedmoor is just designed to suit modern trends.”
And it seems we agree totally, for our purposes these criteria are not relevant and hold no advantages in the kind of rifles we prefer to use
Weatherby Fan
CGN Regular
- Location
- Maple Ridge,BC,Canada
Lots of variables in your question, in most cases no you don't, where do you hunt, what do you hunt ?
If your strictly hunting deer, definitely not,
if your in the group of only having one hunting rifle and hunt everything in NA moose, elk, bear, bison etc probably the most sensible would be a 30 cal magnum of some sort but nothing a 30-06, 280 AI or a 7mm SAUM couldn't handle either, I would probably pick a 300 PRC which doesn't have the "magnum" name attached so not sure if it qualifies
In all this Magnum is just a name attached to some cartridges to promote sales, nothing more.
If your strictly hunting deer, definitely not,
if your in the group of only having one hunting rifle and hunt everything in NA moose, elk, bear, bison etc probably the most sensible would be a 30 cal magnum of some sort but nothing a 30-06, 280 AI or a 7mm SAUM couldn't handle either, I would probably pick a 300 PRC which doesn't have the "magnum" name attached so not sure if it qualifies
In all this Magnum is just a name attached to some cartridges to promote sales, nothing more.
Well, it is quite refreshing to see 'The Usual Suspects' back to arguing about cartridges. Seems like it was everything else but guns on here for a spell.
Nice to see the world has righted itself somewhat...back to aging about minuscule differences in cartridges...finally!
Go team go...don't really care which camp triumphs.
Nice to see the world has righted itself somewhat...back to aging about minuscule differences in cartridges...finally!
Go team go...don't really care which camp triumphs.
BeaverMeat
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nanaimo, B.C.
I don't "need" one... wouldn't mind getting a magnum somthing. .338 WM maybe? IDK.
I prefer short light rifles in the field so getting a magnum is redundant to me. Most magnums need a ~24-26" barrel to utilize the full benefits of a having a magnum. Anything shorter than that you're just making noise with very little performance over a regular rifle cartridge.
The only desirable magnum for me is a 350RM... it works well with a short barrel.
I prefer short light rifles in the field so getting a magnum is redundant to me. Most magnums need a ~24-26" barrel to utilize the full benefits of a having a magnum. Anything shorter than that you're just making noise with very little performance over a regular rifle cartridge.
The only desirable magnum for me is a 350RM... it works well with a short barrel.
