How to get more people involved in Competitive Shooting

Been shooting F-Class since the early 90's. I've seen things evolve and some things come and go.

TR was very popular then when "issue" ammo was free, but once it was gone so were many shooters. F-Class back then was shot with issue ammo, but once the handloading doors opened up F-Class really started to take off.

The factory class was always around the ORA and Base Borden (Mons Range) as far back as I remember. I think it's there to stay, but I don't believe it will develop hard hitting F-Class shooters in droves.
Most F-Classers including myself, tended to be the experimental/testing types that found a place to try the new game at the time and reach the range template envelopes. They were the fun days where rules needed tuning.

Today, I still find the new generation hard hitting F'ers are the ones spending the dollars to push the envelope as it was back then. Most of them have come out of local clubs/backyard private ranges and find themselves instantly in Championships at the DCRA.

Trying to attract new shooters into F-Class immediately is a tough sell. I've found showing up at local clubs with my F-Class gear gets a few individuals interested, but that's where it ends. Most of them are into their factory guns and cannot see a real reason to go further. Other interests takes their money and time.

IMO, those who want to shoot competitively find themselves there no matter what discipline of the sport being pistol, shotgun, CQB, etc.. I have no clue how to bring new shooters to that place except just being there.
 
This is just me talking out of my ass, but I think if people want to get new folks involved, stop saying that they need to be able to shoot sub-inch groups at a hundred meters, or be shooting out to a thousand meters.

At least that's what I've noticed lurking around the boards, that if a gun can only shoot a 3 inch group at 100 meters it's "inaccurate garbage that can't hit the broad side of a barn". That's exactly the kind of thing that promotes the idea that people NEED to be buying premium rifles and accessories that cost several thousand dollars.

I mean, look at me, if I want to get into "precision" shooting I need to cut my average group size down by about five inches, and spend a few thousand dollars on a vehicle since I'm a city boy, and no one's got the time to be helping out a guy who hasn't paid their dues.
 
RIFLEF said:
Does anyone have a % of "RIFLE TEAM CADETS" that keep on shooting after they leave the Forces?
They are trained, rifles and ammo supplied, etc. but once the goodies disappear, how many will shell out the bucks to pursue the sport on their own?
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About 1 or 2 shooters every 5 years. One of the biggest problems when the get into the cadet shooting program, is that they are handed a RPA target rifle and they are told "this thing costs $5000, don't fruck it up". First thing the kid thinks is, "I need $5000 for just a rifle if I want to continue at this game". And I am going to need a shooting jacket, glove, spotting scope, scope stand, a hat, reloading equipment, holy crap I need $10,000 just to get started. Then how am I going to get to the range? Who is going to teach me how to reload? (I have always had issued match ammo handed to me). What about university? What about my girlfriend at home? Mom and Dad just paid $3000 for my car insurance, no way I can asked them for a $5000 rifle.

What these kids don't hear is the older shooters saying to them, you can use my spare rifle to get started. I have some old IVI or DA that you can use for practice. I can help you get started reloading, all you need to buy is some components. I don't live too far from you and so I can swing by and pick you up on the way to the match. I have a spare spotting scope that you can borrow. I know someone that has a complete target rifle with an almost new barrel that will sell it for $800.
 
JP, from what I have seen form the newer F Class shooters, is that they may start off with entry level rifles for the first year or maybe two. After that the hook is set and new barrels are screwed on, new stocks are ordered at the end of last season and they are selling their first born to purchase a new scope.

I shot the Fall Palma in Borden the other day. 16 F'er and only 2 TR shooters (shame on them for not showing up) Out of the 16, I probably only knew 10 of them by name. The F Class shooters do not want to be mixed in with TR shooters anymore and have been shooting as their own little group on the far end of the range for a couple years during the ORA Annual matches. So even during the big matches I always walk down to get a few wiseasss comments in on the F'ers, there are always new faces.
 
Stevebot-7,
The cruel truth is the F Class target has a 1 MOA bull and a 1/2 MOA V Bull. If between you and your equipment you are having a hard time hitting a 6 ft target frame at 1000 yards, or a 4 ft frame at 300m the fun will not last long. That leave you with 3 choices, a) improve your shooting skill. b) Upgrade you equipment or c) stop coming out.
c) would not be that some asked you to stop coming out, but because you will soon be to pissed off with 3 MOA scores.

Take a look at the sticky about Mentors. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/723233-CGN-LR-PR-mentorship-program
There just might be someone from your area that can help you out. Got a buddy that has a car that may be interested in long range shooting? All you can do is ask. There really isn't a "not paying your dues type of mentality", but there isn't a free ride thing either. You may be shocked about how approachable and friendly shooters can be.
You don't have to spend $4000-$5000 on a rifle, it won't turn you into a 1/2 MOA shooter just by showing up at the range with it.
 
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If a shooter is interested, or want to get some quality practise, consider what I am using.

IMG_3234.jpg


this is the dirt cheap Savage heavy barrel MkII w/ accutrigger. There are now kits to make the pull nice and light. Accuracy has been superb and drift at 300m is very close to my new FTR at 1000yds.

Now wears a 20 MOA base and Burris Sig ZEE rings holding my Sightron 6-24X50 LRMOA scope. The scaling with mag is really close to what I "see" at 1000yds with my 10-50 scope used on my FTR rigs.

Also, using my MPOD so set up is trying to get as close to the FTR as possible. new stock is in the works to complete the cloning.

Adjust the target size to suit so drifts make sense. Have at it. Shooting SK Rifle Match which is a decent price for quality ammo. Hirsch precision is where I got mine. some where around $7/50 which is 8 to 9 times cheaper then shooting 308 match ammo reloads.

The accuracy at 300m is actually much better then expected. Form, follow through, grip strength all have to be consistent or you will be sending that bullet off into la la land.

Got some scaled wind flags from Wheelgun and it is going to let me set up mini ranges. Best part, I can move my range around so that I can set up for various wind angles.

1000yds not so easy for everyone to get to. 200 to 300 yds is available just about everywhere.

If you can read the wind, you can be competitive with a MOA or better factory rig.

Jerry
 
kombayotch said:
I don't agree with the idea that young guys don't want to go out and shoot circles all day. Whenever I go to any local range, that's all that I see the young guys doing: shooting their rifles off the bench at circles all day. Doesn't matter if its a boltgun, an AR or an SKS. Rarely see them shoot standing at anything beyond 25 yards. Only other people practicing kneeling are the Olympic smallbore shooters.
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That's kind of exactly my point Kris. 25m is the relevant part not whether the target is a circle or not. 25m is a lot more feedback friendly and easy than 500m. Gunnerlove is bang on in my opinion. It's all about GETTING the shooters first THEN progressing them along as they start to realize that 25m and in isn't the biggest challenge out there and there are bigger different challenges. Once we have them interested its easy to peak that interest with a new challenge. Personally I think it's easier to find and KEEP shooters when approached this way that to try and jump them right into the sport from nothing. Just me though. Very interesting discussion here.
 
I understand what you are saying as a path to SR. However, we have several 300 yard/meter ranges around here, and there are many shooters that go out with their Remington/Savage boltguns and shoot round target all day long with them. Many of them don't even own a rifle suitable for CQB, so why would it make sense to send those shooters down the path you are proposing? Why would these shooters be content shooting at circles all day on a 300 yard range, but not on a 1000 yard range?
 
WG300
Après avoir lu tes commentaires #52-61-63-65, je crois que tu n'auras pas de difficultés a avoir une place sur l'équipe pour 2017 car comme tu es parti là tu seras seul. Il se dégage un manque de respect flagrant dans tes textes pour tes co-équipiers qu'ils ne méritent pas. Tu attaques des gens qui ont, par leurs connaissances, et le partage généreux de celles-ci, sont respectés par la communauté des tireurs dans laquelle tu t'es taillé une place de choix. Les premiers commentaires à sortir de Raton n'étaient qu'éloge à ton égard pour tes performances, mais tu es en train de tout gâcher. Prend du recul et évalue la situation.

After having read your comments #52-61-63-65, you won't have a hard time making the 2017 Team, it will be a one man team. The unearned disrespect your written comments show towards your team mates is causing you irreparable damage. You are attacking fellow shooters who have earned, by their knowledge, and the generous sharing of that knowledge, the respect of the shooting community in which you have chiseled your place. The first comments out of Raton, were but praise at the prowess of your skill. But with the attacks you are doing yourself irreparable damage. Please take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.

J.F.(SAM) RENAUD
 
kombayotch said:
I understand what you are saying as a path to SR. However, we have several 300 yard/meter ranges around here, and there are many shooters that go out with their Remington/Savage boltguns and shoot round target all day long with them. Many of them don't even own a rifle suitable for CQB, so why would it make sense to send those shooters down the path you are proposing? Why would these shooters be content shooting at circles all day on a 300 yard range, but not on a 1000 yard range?
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I guess my thoughts are you are never going to get those folks. If you were going to get them you'd already have them. I'm saying your chasing the wrong group. Start with the young. Get them involved on whatever level cqb or otherwise. Get them excited. Get them wanting more, then eventually you will have them when they realize chasing the wind IS exciting! Kinda like farm team hockey. Lots of people not ready for that level whatever the reason. You just have to bring them up slowly with enough interest and excitement not to lose them along the way and eventually they'll be playing for your team.
 
Paul,

this year at Victoria, there was close to 15 points between 1st and 2nd, 2nd being a 223. Winning by 15 points (close to) is a MAJOR gap. I don't recall position of the first 223 shooter at this year Eastern but the gap was even much farther away than 15 points. Last year, there was no heavy 308 running really fast like this year. Of course, when there is no wind a 223 can shoot for sure. But hopping not to face any wind at Connaught...is damn rare. When someone shoot a 75-14, there is no wind.

btw, I would be surprised if a 223 was at Raton this year, can someone confirm ?
 
RIFLEF said:
WG300
Après avoir lu tes commentaires #52-61-63-65, je crois que tu n'auras pas de difficultés a avoir une place sur l'équipe pour 2017 car comme tu es parti là tu seras seul. Il se dégage un manque de respect flagrant dans tes textes pour tes co-équipiers qu'ils ne méritent pas. Tu attaques des gens qui ont, par leurs connaissances, et le partage généreux de celles-ci, sont respectés par la communauté des tireurs dans laquelle tu t'es taillé une place de choix. Les premiers commentaires à sortir de Raton n'étaient qu'éloge à ton égard pour tes performances, mais tu es en train de tout gâcher. Prend du recul et évalue la situation.

After having read your comments #52-61-63-65, you won't have a hard time making the 2017 Team, it will be a one man team. The unearned disrespect your written comments show towards your team mates is causing you irreparable damage. You are attacking fellow shooters who have earned, by their knowledge, and the generous sharing of that knowledge, the respect of the shooting community in which you have chiseled your place. The first comments out of Raton, were but praise at the prowess of your skill. But with the attacks you are doing yourself irreparable damage. Please take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.

J.F.(SAM) RENAUD
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I got your point and respect it. But you don't know nothing about me and what makes me mention something like that. The first action would be to simply ask...and believe me, you will find a good reason.
 
At Raton, one of the Canadian F-Open coaches shot a 223 Rem and I believe he was shooting 80.5 gr. Bergers....and did very well........and, yes, an F-Open Coach...it's not a typo.....
 
Longshot said:
I guess my thoughts are you are never going to get those folks. If you were going to get them you'd already have them. I'm saying your chasing the wrong group. Start with the young. Get them involved on whatever level cqb or otherwise. Get them excited. Get them wanting more, then eventually you will have them when they realize chasing the wind IS exciting! Kinda like farm team hockey. Lots of people not ready for that level whatever the reason. You just have to bring them up slowly with enough interest and excitement not to lose them along the way and eventually they'll be playing for your team.
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On a civilian range, we are never going to see many of the young people that you see training CF. The young people we do see have already shown enough interest to go out and get their PAL, buy their own equipment and ammo, and go out and practice on their own time without getting paid for it. In many ways, I think it is an easier task convincing them to come out than you have. If someone has already experienced shooting competitions and doesn’t want to continue when they have to pay for it out of their own pocket (even inexpensive equipment), I don’t think they ever will. These shooters are further along the path. The type of shooting they have interest in is apparent by the type of equipment they buy, and believe it or not, some young people are more interested in precision type shooting than action type shooting. They are already putting up trail marking tape and trying to read wind. Many of them don’t want to want to buy restricted firearms, which makes CQB a tough sell. Even if you use a NR rifle, you still need a handgun. We have people who shoot SR, but don’t shoot CQB for that reason.

I don’t find your assessment of CQB to be entirely accurate, at least not based on what we see here. The majority of people shooting CQB are 35+ (the average is probably closer to 40). The pictures in the AARs show that. That you don’t need to run in CQB is probably a big part of it. Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of young people there (because there is just a ton of people going), but the people winning the master class tend to be 35+ the majority of the time, and are shooting ARs. The new people are usually nowhere near “a few points away” from the winners, as you say. There is typically a 200+ point spread (out of 550). That is like saying that someone shooting a 350 in your classic SR CoF is a few points away from the winner. Not really...

The difference with CQB, why it is so popular, is the way it is advertised and the fact that it IS advertised. All of the information is provided in an easy to find post at the top of the forum, so people who have no idea the PRA even exists still find it, and find it quickly. Each match has an AAR that shows people having FUN. It is never marketed as being highly competitive even though the people shooting in the master class are highly competitive and are there to win. There are awards for people with lower skills and less competitive equipment. If someone wants to come out with their SKS, they're encouraged to do so without hesitation. It doesn't matter that they won't be competitive with it, they will be able to participate and will have FUN. The competitive aspect of the event is NOT emphasized. But make no mistake, it is there, and a lot of skill is required to win a CQB match. The pistol shots in particular are very challenging and count for a big chunk of the score.

What irks me is that many of these factory bolt gun shooters DO express interest in long range shooting, but somewhere they get the impression that their equipment is not adequate enough to even participate (which if strange since many people were introduced to 1000 yard shooting with Lee Enfields or rifles firing 5.56 IVI ammo). Where do they get that idea? Well, you only have to read through this thread to get a hint of where some of it comes from. I find that very sad. Particularly since I’ve watched shooters start out with regular factory bolt guns at 1000 yards and go on to upgrade their equipment and do well in competition. Some went on to compete in regional matches, one shot at Raton this year and only a couple of the Canadian shooters there did better. Was he still shooting a factory gun? Of course not! But a Savage 10 FCP was the platform he learned on for more than a year, and he probably would have never pursued long range shooting at all if he had not been encouraged to go and shoot that Savage at 1000 yards. It got him hooked.
 
I think that this is not only an issue of attracting new shooters but how do we keep encouraging new shooters to come out and shoot. I still consider myself a relatively new shooter, started shooting with the ORA 4 years ago but it was really by luck that I found out about it. Being a hunter and having a friend that was new to hunting we decided to take the Hunters Marksmanship course at Milcun. We found out about it in the OFAH magazine. It was there that Keith and Linda told me about the ORA and the intro days, which I attended, and subsequently attended the winter training seminar (great introductory course). I just wish I would have known about the ORA earlier. I think that advertising the ORA and the various disciplines in more mainstream media would be a big start to get new shooters to some out. I also think focusing on improving skills and fun rather than just on the competitive aspect would be better suited.

I think that having classifications (such as rookie, expert, master), like precision has moved too, would be really beneficial. It is always gratifying to leave with a first, second or third place certificate and knowing that you have a chance to win one because you are competing against people of an equal skill level, rather then always competing against all of the seasoned veterans. This also makes goal setting easier for an individual since the goals are somewhat smaller and more attainable.

I think that the winter training session was a great primer into what the ORA offers and what is required to get started and enjoy the sport, but I do think having more in depth training sessions on specific topics would help a great deal. I know that people at the matches and practices for the most part are willing to help new shooters (I have always had lost of advice given to me and mostly positive experiences), but I bet that there are a lot of new shooters that are intimidated, or had a bad experience when asking for advice that they do not. Then, because they don't see themselves improving, simply stop coming out. Having some more in depth training sessions (consisting of class room and practical with coaching) on topics such as, wind reading, reloading etc. could help overcome some of these issues.
 
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The last line is very powerful and I understand how this can get real frustrating for those that are "stuck" and can't seem to improve.

There are some great books on wind reading, equipment prep and how to handle a match. Nancy Tompkins and MILCUN both have superb books which I am enjoying. Reading through I am always met with a "great idea", or "I can use that". These authors have been there, done that and have the trophies to back it up.

Answers so much and you don't need to feel intimidated asking a seasoned shooter who may be super nice but you just caught him/her during a busy time at a match. Matches can get pretty intense sometimes.

Then shooters just have to get out there and shoot. Practise, practise, practise. We simply don't do enough so it is very hard to see any improvements especially against seasoned shooters who do practise lots.

As you shoot more, and are part of the range, it is easier to get to know the other shooters. They will offer help but you have to put in the initial effort to get the process moving along. Come out to Intro days, shoot in local matches.

Lead downrange is a great teacher.

Sometimes, people want to know it all or be the expert right away. Some skills just aren't like that and only time, practise, patience, failure and hard work, gets it done. Wind reading is such a skill and this is a lifetime project.

LR Precision shooting is not for the instant gratification crowd (although you will have a lot of fun first time out).

Those that stop improving likely aren't putting in all the effort and resources they need to. I have had the pleasure of meeting some shooters at the top of this game and they will be the first to admit they do not know it all and learn everytime they get out on the range.

Now a golden opportunity is about to hit the Canadian F class community. Team trials and training are going to start next season to develop the team for the 2017 Worlds in Connaught, ON.

Yes, it will be on home turf. IF you have any interest, contact Highmark and get on the email list. You will get a chance to head out for practise and learn, learn, learn. Not the best? Don't worry about it. The goal is to HAVE THE BEST in 2017. There is time to develop both skills and gear to really step up your game.

At worst, you will have learnt from some of the best shooters in the world and that has to be good for something.

Jerry
 
I dunno. I thought I was pretty good with pistol, rifle and shotgun. I go to the range, practice a lot, etc, and then I watch a video of competitive shooting. Even the beginner levels - if I came out, I think it would be strictly for comic relief. I have a ton of respect for people who are good at this. Hell, I have a ton of respect for people who AREN'T good at this because they'd sure kick my ass at it.

Cannon
 
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