HU: Norinco '.22 KKW Trainer' (now with pics)

[10x]

Thanks for all of the great info everyone.

Everything was oiled up again after I did the brake-clean thing.

I found the problem with the rear sight. It looks as though the two hinge posts on either side were cut in crooked.
And it makes the sight sit like this.
IMG]
What is the best way to fix this? Somehow I'm going to have to get both of the posts sitting straight across from eachother.

The safety is stiff because when it is engaged it is having to push the firing pin back about 1/4 inch further than it is already sitting.

I'm thinking with this if I file the two angles on the firing pin that click into the safety back 1/8 of an inch, the safety will only have to push the firing pin back 1/8 of an inch, instead of the 1/4" it is pushing it now.

]

You might try to use a dremal with a small grinder to even out the posts. This is worth a try first.

Or
To repair the rear sight. Measure the diameter of the posts. measure the total distance the posts protrude on each side of the sight. Use a good set of calipers. Get a drill bit of the same diameter. get a roll pin that that is the same diameter as the drill bit or an interfearence fit. Or use a dremal tool to cut off the shank of the drill bit for the sight pin.
You will need access to a drill press as well.
File the posts off the sight. Centre punch, drill, and place a pin in the new hole of the proper diameter. make sure the pin is no longer (or shorter) than the original width of the sight plus posts. Do not attempt to do this with a hand held drill.



As for your safety. Polish it first. Do not remove material from the firing pin until you have all the surfaces slick and shinny. And measure the amount the safety moves the firing pin back. Use a good caliper.

I checked on a BRNO and several Norincos. The amount of pressure you need to put the safety on is caused by a strong firing pin spring. I would use a round needle file on the detent in the safety to reduce the shoulder that pushes the cocking piece back when the safety is applied. You don't need to take off very much metal. Very likely less than 1/64".
These guns will always have a stiff safety as the safety has to move the firing pin back against the pressure of the firing pin spring. I measured. it is not 1/8" of an inch. It is much closer to 3/64", if that. Removing some metal - maybe 1/64" will reduce the distance traveled.
Remember to keep the angles the same as you do not want a safety that pops off by itself.
This safety is the most positive safety available on a .22 rimfire. It blocks the fall of the firing pin. It also ensures that the sear is engaged as it moves the cocking piece back when released so the sear can engage.
if too much metal is removed from the safety or cocking piece the saftey just may release the cocking piece and allow the gun to fire whe the safety is clicked off, especially if the trigger has been pulled while the safety was on and the sear does not enage properly when the safety is released.

Watch for hardened surfaces. They will be difficult to file and once the surface hardening is removed, the piece will wear very quickly.

Go slowly, measure.

 

[Dr.Lector]

Oh, man, 10x is more serious than a bible. I like that.
I wish my sight was FU but the base (ramp) was tack-welded straight.

Maybe marba has 3 of them for sale
and if one of them is straight, sscowboy may be good to go.

Anyway, I have a few questions, please.

10x, did you happen to have a look at the CZ/Brno?
How is that barrel assembled into the receiver? Pinned or threaded?
The real reason for me asking this is that I found one Brno for sale,
but I didn’t see it yet and I wanted to know in advance.


Marba, do you care for some pics of the 3 bases you took off?
Did you find one single tack-weld on each of them like in this pic?

I’m waiting for your answers, gentlemen, but it’s not realy a rush.
Thank you.

 

[marba]

My rear sights were good .The front sights were crappy.two of them were far to the right ,the tang on the front sight stuck out 1/4" on the base. I shot a friends yesterday it shot 1" low at 40 yards and its a nice .22. One of mine rattles like a old model 760.He has two of them ,the one he's butchered looks great he's got 9 1/2 hours into it .He couldn't get a half decent group until he stated using Eley .22 ammo and at 40 yards its great.Out of that 9 1/2 hours he's : Cleaned the rifle
cut sights off (front & rear)
cut stock down & reshape
altered bolt handle
a little fine tuning
He's now tapering the barrel and then putting a curlly maple stock on it,also he's not wasting parts he skeletonize the ugly butt plate for his new stock.But over christmas I've showen the trainer to 8 different people and 4 of them are ordering themselves one from lever.I have one rear sight assy.if someone needs one.marba

 

[Dr.Lector]

Ok. And?
Is the rear sight held on the barrel in one single tack-weld? Or two?
What did you find?
(Pretty please and thank you).

 

[marba]

Its held on with one weld

 

[Dr.Lector]

Thank you kindly

 

[10x]

Oh, man, 10x is more serious than a bible. I like that.

Snip.

Anyway, I have a few questions, please.

10x, did you happen to have a look at the CZ/Brno?
How is that barrel assembled into the receiver? Pinned or threaded?
The real reason for me asking this is that I found one Brno for sale,
but I didn’t see it yet and I wanted to know in advance.



I’m waiting for your answers, gentlemen, but it’s not realy a rush.
Thank you.

Serious??? I have a passion for firearms. I also like doing repairs in in such a way that the repair functions as well as, or better than new, and doesn't damage the function or looks of the gun. When someone takes the gun apart in the future, if they notice the repair they will appreciate the way the repair or modification was done.

ALL of the BRNOs I have ever pulled the barrels off had threaded shanks.
I have yet to see any BRNOs with a pinned barrel.

The BRNO #1 I just looked at has a firing pin spring that is 3/8" shorter than the Norinco and the pressure needed to engage the safety on the JW25A was much less with this firing pin spring installed than with the stock Norinco spring. The more I play with the JW25A the easier the safety is to engage. Maybe my thumb is getting stronger or the parts are "wearing in" or polishing themselves to fit.

If you want a softer safety, get a firing pin spring for a BRNO #1 and install it.
make sure it fits and works, you can then cut one of your two springs shorter about 1/8" at a time, and see how a shorter spring makes the safety easier to engage. Remember you get a softer firing pin strike with a softer, or shorter spring so if you overdo it you will start getting misfires.


The bolt from the #1 does not fit the JW25A as there is a wider guide tab in the bottom of the Norinco action (just behind the magazine well) that would have to be altered. It isn't worth the risk of an un reliable .22 to alter this to see if the bolts are totally interchangeable. Even if the bolt fit, I suspect there would be signficant headspace issues, either too tight, or too loose.

As for the bolt. The BRNO parts seem to be very close and could be made to fit the Norinco or vice versa but there are subtle differences.

BTW: All of the BRNO .22 rimfires that I have pulled the barrel off have a thread shank of between 7/8" and 1". significantly larger than the shank of a take off barrel from most common .22 rimfires.

The Norinco JW25A magazine will fit and function in the BRNO #1 but it is tight and would need a bit of polishing on the magazine to make it "quick change". At least the magazine I tried fit and functioned. Other may have had a different experience.

 

[skirsons]

I’ll post some more things about Norinco trainers.

Long time ago, when I heard for the first time
the name KKW associated with Norinco
I was very puzzled because I knew
the Chinese prefer to re-nameeverything they copy.
But if you simply google “Norinco KKW” you’ll find out that
these guns were imported by Navy Arms in US.
I’m sure that Navy Arms ordered these guns to be marked TU-KKW.
You may also find pics like these:

Thanks be to Dr. Lector for posting all those pics, BTW.

I still wish I could find one of the long Norincos for my personal collection.

 

[Dr.Lector]

And thank you and everybody for co-operating,
exchanging info and everything.

 

[Dr.Lector]

1. 10x, you were very "letter of the book" and very "all business"
not only in the way of your explanations,
but also in the method you approached.
I was impressed.

Me, I would have taken a different approach,
probably because it's holyday season
If it was me, if I had to repair the posts of that site,
1.I was filing them,
2.flip the site upside down, cut (mill) a transversal channel
perfectly straight, aligned and squared with the site
(channel didn’t have to have a round bottom)
3.find a solid pin (not a rol pin) of the same diameter
4.silver-solder, braze, whatever, the pin on the site
in the channel I just cut
5.re-shape and finnish at original dimensions.
But that’s just me.
You were willing to go the extra yard
to make sure you did it right.

2.I don’t intend to swap parts with the Brno.
It's gonna be just another gun.
I only wanted to know in advance what kind of barrel I should expect.

3.Firing pin spring may also have thicker wire
than it's supposed to. I didn't take out mine,
so I don't know what the problem might be.

4.Yes, the safety wears and becomes softer to engage.
However, as a general rule, I strongly recommend filing
and having from the start the right engagement
on the whole profile (full surface contact between the parts)
rather than let the parts "chose" their own shape.
I also wouldn't be afraid of hardening on the surface only
for the small parts of this gun.

5.If Brno has a threaded barrel, you don’t have to
install a liner, but find an exchange barrel.
I’m sure they make them in US.
Go rimfirecentral dot com and find out.

 

[Dr.Lector]

Anybody posting pics of the scope mounting solution?

 

[skirsons]

I used to have pics of my scout mount but they're gone. It looked nice, like a ZF-41. Plus at around $80.00 for the scout mount, it's not for everyone, so you might think you are better off with rings. The see-thru rings are the best solution, but make sure to buy a long scope or one with no "Bell" on the end to avoid interfering with the bolt handle. That bolt handle is high.

 

[10x]

1. 10x, you were very "letter of the book" and very "all business"
not only in the way of your explanations,
but also in the method you approached.
I was impressed.

[Me, I would have taken a different approach,
probably because it's holyday season
If it was me, if I had to repair the posts of that site,
1.I was filing them,
2.flip the site upside down, cut (mill) a transversal channel
perfectly straight, aligned and squared with the site
(channel didn’t have to have a round bottom)
3.find a solid pin (not a rol pin) of the same diameter
4.silver-solder, braze, whatever, the pin on the site
in the channel I just cut
5.re-shape and finnish at original dimensions.
But that’s just me.
You were willing to go the extra yard
to make sure you did it right. .

Thank you very much.
I do have a question. Why mill when you can drill?

 

[sscowboy]

Well, tonight I attacked the rear sight after going over all of the options. I decided that the best way would be to enlarge the one hole that the rear sight fits into. It worked in that the rear sight is able to align properly now, but the downside is now there is a significant amount of play in the rear sight. My hope was that the spring would be able to hold the sight tight enough. The sight won't move on it's own, but a slight push will move it back and forth now. I might look at trying to fill the one side of the hole to tighten up the sight again. Another option is to attach a set of ears that will hold the rear sight inline. I'm not sure what I will do yet.

 

[Dr.Lector]

I do have a question. Why mill when you can drill?

just a personal preference.
I would hate to push that roll pin you are talking about
(roll pins are springgy and they fit very tight, right?)
and see the thin walls of the site breaking.
As I said before, it's just me. Never mind.

 

[10x]

just a personal preference.
I would hate to push that roll pin you are talking about
(roll pins are springgy and they fit very tight, right?)
and see the thin walls of the site breaking.
As I said before, it's just me. Never mind.

Then use your dremal to cut off the end of the drill bit and epoxy it into the hole in the sight.
A roll pin that is of the proper diameter for the hole drilled will slide in with a very light tap with a very light hammer as well.
Or even with hand pressure using a block of hardwood to push it in.
If you have to use a great deal of force to get a roll pin into a hole, either the hole is too small or the roll pin is too large in diameter.

Or you could drill a hole, tap it, cut the sides fo the sight narrower and use a long 6-40 bolt and give the rear sight some windage adjustment similar to the method on the rear sight of a No. 7 Lee enfield.

 

[MauserMike]

I wonder for the rear ramp sight whether people would be better off just to buy a new one? Sources online?

Mine is just slightly crooked to the left. I'm thinking I can stuff a shim in there to straighten it out because it does push to the center with finger pressure. My sight ramps up but probably not enough.

Question: could the sight be soldered on if removed/repaired or removed/replaced? I believe the original Mauser sights are soldered.

 

[beerdog]

My rear sight was also off to one side, so here is what iI did for a quick fix:
fist I removed the Ramp and noticed the two posts that hold it in place were not inline.

Taking very little material witha small file off the front of one post and the back of the other untill it was even,but there was allot of play side to side.

With the ramp installed I pinched the ears closer together and this got rid of most orf the play, but noe its a little more dificult to adjust elevation (not a big deal

I also noticed the base was higher on one side, so I filed it down untll flush and level ( this may also help with the shooting low problem)

And here is a picture of what looks like just one tac weld

 

[Dr.Lector]

10x Thanks for your suggestions.
I am not going into a debate over some theoretical approach.
I had a look at the second gun I bought,
it seems the sight might have the same problem
as some people here have with theirs
(side posts on the site are not aligned), although
the gun is greasy and I could not say that with certitude.
When I will decide to fix it, I will choose the method.

Question: could the sight be soldered on if removed/repaired or removed/replaced? I believe the original Mauser sights are soldered.

It can be silver-soldered, yes, but I strongly recommend against playing with heat on a barrel (any barrel), especialy if the barrel is heat-treated (I think you mentioned heat-treatment earlier in this thread).
You may end up with a barrel that is softer in that spot
or a bore that's not straight.

 

[Dr.Lector]

For whoever wants to put scope on the top dovetail,
I suggest you clean the dovetail (both the channels and the top)
with a small little file because they have a lot of little dents and such.

Measurement is roughly .460", that is about 11.7 mm.
11.7 mm is a size used on few airguns
(Webley Patriot but maybe some other crap too).
I could find some high rings, but not see-thru rings yet
(nor see-thru base).

Anybody with news in this department, please post in this thread.