Hunting Accuracy?

[PSE]

I use all the shots.

How you fire 10 shots strings is as important as the statistical data you get from the string itself. Constantly firing without letting the barrel cool between strings tells you misleading data because of course barrel heat will warp the barrel to some degree. (unless you're firing multiple shots as part of a competition with time constraints and wish to know how the barrel warps which is another discussion entirely)

It is very important to allow for barrel cooling in order to simulate as much as possible "the cold bore shot" usually taken during hunting conditions.
The thickness of barrel, whether fluted or non fluted, stainless, carbon fiber or simple blued steel and most important ambient temperature as well as method of cooling (which for most is waiting a period of time and checking barrel temp before firing again) are all factors.

Some folks will fire slow strings of 5 repeatedly (NRA 5X5 protocol) and walk down to check and change targets allowing barrel to fully cool in between strings. There are different techniques.

The important thing is to get a high enough sample rate and/or repeat the string enough times to get statistical valid data.
This doesn't have to be complex or cost a whole bunch. It just involves a little extra range time and ammo and well worth it whether the application is hunting or competitive sports. I'd argue that it is now more important than ever for hunting nowadays since the trend is toward longer shots with better tools.

The suggested slow group of 10 is a quick and dirty way of determining the quality and validity of the 3 most important factors - the shooter, the rifle and the ammo. The random casual 3 shot 1 inch group may easily open up to 1.5 inches or more using 10 shots because of ammo manufacturing tolerances but that still may be more than adequate for shots you are likely to want to take. But now you know!! and knowledge is capability.

Nothing beats the confidence of knowing you can make the shot in the field under conditions you're likely to encounter with the tools you carry.

Ep. 050 - Your Groups Are Too Small | SAMPLE SIZE |​

YouTube·Hornady Manufacturing·Dec 15, 2022

 

[Dogleg]

I wouldn’t want him shooting at me. 5 solid hits on an IPSC target at 600 from an improvised rest?

 

[blakeyboy]

Yup to that and to where to zero, to center of natural cone of dispersion of 10 shots, or at least 5 but another 5 will let ya know. You have a spinny round thing coming out of a spinny round thing, flinging bullets outward at any of 360 degrees lol, 10 let’s you see where you want to zero and it’s middle of that, accurate enough to kill stuff at distance, you can’t shoot better to tell than say 1.5 moa-ish, your field conditions and field shooting are outside of that likely anyway. If 10 shot groups 1.5 moa or better you’re laughin as far as you can dope well. If you have a 1.2” 10 shot rig that’s excellent and may as well start competing nrl etc if it’s 1” or less. You’d go a long ways still with 2moa 10 shot combo.

Just think it through about the spinning football coming out of a tube and it’s slight divergence each time, how many shots you need to see to find true zero which is center of that dispersion? More than 3 that’s for sure. 5 warms you up, zero checks with 5 are good, but zeroing shoot 10. Especially if you are setting up solutions for longer distances. Having zero wrong can cost you multiple trips and lots of gas chasing your tail, ask me how I know.

 

[708fan]

My M70 gets no testing, just pick a safe charge from the manual and shoot it. I test custom barrels with three shot groups. It takes less than thirty rounds to get a new hand lapped barrel in the same hole at 100. All three of mine like a fairly flat primer while seating the bullet .001 on bolt close. But you must keep your eye open and use a hard hold to maintain POA until muzzle exit.
I have three rifles hitting hockey puck sized targets from the 1000 yard bench with a Champion barricade bag and Caldwell rear.
The employees of Hornady and many other popular names cannot do that yet they still talk.

 

[Dogleg]

I’m old fashioned; believeing that the purpose of shooting is hitting not grouping. Mechanical precision is all well and good, but people get confused thinking that shavng a fraction of a MOA off their short range groups is going to magically translate into hits where windage and elevation is measured in feet. Knowing what to do with what you have, and knowing the limits of the rifle, load, shooter and system is what its all about.

 

[Lefty Dick]

392 yds with my Ruger American, in .243Win, with reloaded 85’s.

Used this combo on my recent antelope hunt.

 

[s3xspert11]

It's called statistics and probability.

10 rounds is usually considered a high enough sample size to determine exactly where your gun is likely to place the bullet at any given time on demand (accuracy) and also give you a very good idea as to how tight a group the rifle, ammo and shooter can repeatedly achieve (precision). This is what shooters (and hunters) who are serious about precision and accuracy try to do as it gives them a very good idea as to how far they can do an ethical shot on big game.

Not quite the same as rapidly shooting out the truck I know.

I realize this is going to be like barking at the moon but since you asked.

For more and better info I would recommend Hornady podcast "Your groups are too small"

10 shots? Man Ive come across a few articles as of past few months of guys doing 20-40 shot groups to see what it does
Seeing as Im far too cheap for that 10 shots is my go to.

 

[Joel]

It's called statistics and probability.

10 rounds is usually considered a high enough sample size to determine exactly where your gun is likely to place the bullet at any given time on demand (accuracy) and also give you a very good idea as to how tight a group the rifle, ammo and shooter can repeatedly achieve (precision). This is what shooters (and hunters) who are serious about precision and accuracy try to do as it gives them a very good idea as to how far they can do an ethical shot on big game.

Not quite the same as rapidly shooting out the truck I know.

I realize this is going to be like barking at the moon but since you asked.

For more and better info I would recommend Hornady podcast "Your groups are too small"

NAH. You take 3 shot groups, cause everyone knows 5 shots is the shooter and not the rifle. And you throw out the flyers cause they are flyers.


Thats all you need!

 

[PSE]

NAH. You take 3 shot groups, cause everyone knows 5 shots is the shooter and not the rifle. And you throw out the flyers cause they are flyers.


Thats all you need!

Ah yes - the old flyer protocol. LOL

Throw out any data points that don't make the group look as good as possible. This is usually coupled with the explanation "That was me"

 

[Joel]

Ah yes - the old flyer protocol. LOL

Throw out any data points that don't make the group look as good as possible. That is usually coupled with the explanation "That was me"

Thats the one.

Also, if your next 3 round groups are also acceptably small, but migrated a little bit, thats totally not an indication that you really have a 2 moa rifle if you shoot a 9-10 shot group lol.

And Tikka manages to build a 6.4 lb rifle that shoots groups fine while hot but lets not think about that too hard.

 

[708fan]

392 yds with my Ruger American, in .243Win, with reloaded 85’s.

Used this combo on my recent antelope hunt.

Cut that out, I was enjoying Speer prices. Good shooting.

 

[Lefty Dick]

Cut that out, I was enjoying Speer prices. Good shooting.

And don’t let the single group get you thinking that’s some sort of fluke, I just happened to take a photo of that one group, just to tease a buddy.

I ran this load clear out to 500 meters on steel, and did all my load development at 300 yards……. The groups were pretty outstanding through development and after a few tweaks came together as shown…… 3250 fps at the muzzle with a 22” bbl.

 

[blakeyboy]

10 shots? Man Ive come across a few articles as of past few months of guys doing 20-40 shot groups to see what it does
Seeing as Im far too cheap for that 10 shots is my go to.

Apparently 30 is the official ‘statistical’ number to show the true cone of dispersion for life of barrel and load, but 10 is good enough to replicate it for zeroing as the 10 and 30 will be roughly same circle but the 30 just fills in a bunch more of the same circle.

And as said if you don’t zero to center of that it only increases your wtf’s as distances increase.

Especially if you have good chrony numbers, good ballistics software, accurate atmospherics, and good rangefinding, and you’re trying to ‘true’ at distance and either correct the bc beyond what seems rational or the fps...go check the actual zero 1st and prolly get your answer there, true story. Now I’m a zero junky, close enough only works for the Mpbr and just beyond a bit. I heard somewhere , that number 1 reason we miss is we suck and number 2 is zero loss (or improper to start). So it’s a pretty big thing to get right to help you rule out all other things when you miss. If you miss it’s nice to know it was you, not a zero issue, or a combination of both. We have enough variables to try and control out there, and zero is a big one to be worthy of ensuring it is correct and that it stays put. The error only compounds the further you go.

No building a system that retains zero through all handling and truck rides and whatever else a hunting season can throw at you is a whole nuther can of worms in equipment and assembly. Once you start confirming proper zero, seasonally, or quarterly, after use etc, that your proper zero stays put then that’s a bonus! Not easy to find that. Lots going on from scope internals on down through rings, bases, bases to action, action to stock, barrel in action even. If your rig can’t maintain zero it’s a process to chase down the culprit(s). One way to find out, 5-10 round groups and do they stay where they supposed to over time and use?

 

[s3xspert11]

Apparently 30 is the official ‘statistical’ number to show the true cone of dispersion for life of barrel and load, but 10 is good enough to replicate it for zeroing as the 10 and 30 will be roughly same circle but the 30 just fills in a bunch more of the same circle.

And as said if you don’t zero to center of that it only increases your wtf’s as distances increase.

Especially if you have good chrony numbers, good ballistics software, accurate atmospherics, and good rangefinding, and you’re trying to ‘true’ at distance and either correct the bc beyond what seems rational or the fps...go check the actual zero 1st and prolly get your answer there, true story. Now I’m a zero junky, close enough only works for the Mpbr and just beyond a bit. I heard somewhere , that number 1 reason we miss is we suck and number 2 is zero loss (or improper to start). So it’s a pretty big thing to get right to help you rule out all other things when you miss. If you miss it’s nice to know it was you, not a zero issue, or a combination of both. We have enough variables to try and control out there, and zero is a big one to be worthy of ensuring it is correct and that it stays put. The error only compounds the further you go.

No building a system that retains zero through all handling and truck rides and whatever else a hunting season can throw at you is a whole nuther can of worms in equipment and assembly. Once you start confirming proper zero, seasonally, or quarterly, after use etc, that your proper zero stays put then that’s a bonus! Not easy to find that. Lots going on from scope internals on down through rings, bases, bases to action, action to stock, barrel in action even. If your rig can’t maintain zero it’s a process to chase down the culprit(s). One way to find out, 5-10 round groups and do they stay where they supposed to over time and use?

"Apparently 30 is the official ‘statistical’ number to show the true cone of dispersion for life of barrel and load,"
ahh yes, couldn't really remember the reasoning or where I read it, however you nailed it.

 

[Bustercluck]

Apparently 30 is the official ‘statistical’ number to show the true cone of dispersion for life of barrel and load, but 10 is good enough to replicate it for zeroing as the 10 and 30 will be roughly same circle but the 30 just fills in a bunch more of the same circle.

And as said if you don’t zero to center of that it only increases your wtf’s as distances increase.

Especially if you have good chrony numbers, good ballistics software, accurate atmospherics, and good rangefinding, and you’re trying to ‘true’ at distance and either correct the bc beyond what seems rational or the fps...go check the actual zero 1st and prolly get your answer there, true story. Now I’m a zero junky, close enough only works for the Mpbr and just beyond a bit. I heard somewhere , that number 1 reason we miss is we suck and number 2 is zero loss (or improper to start). So it’s a pretty big thing to get right to help you rule out all other things when you miss. If you miss it’s nice to know it was you, not a zero issue, or a combination of both. We have enough variables to try and control out there, and zero is a big one to be worthy of ensuring it is correct and that it stays put. The error only compounds the further you go.

No building a system that retains zero through all handling and truck rides and whatever else a hunting season can throw at you is a whole nuther can of worms in equipment and assembly. Once you start confirming proper zero, seasonally, or quarterly, after use etc, that your proper zero stays put then that’s a bonus! Not easy to find that. Lots going on from scope internals on down through rings, bases, bases to action, action to stock, barrel in action even. If your rig can’t maintain zero it’s a process to chase down the culprit(s). One way to find out, 5-10 round groups and do they stay where they supposed to over time and use?

The only real way to know if you can do it is to do it. We have a 5 or 6” diamond at our range placed at 500metres. I usually bring my hunting rifle along every range trip and cold bore that distance off the bench. I find my first shot is a tad low and left of the following shots. I aslo regularly shoot milk jugs, 2 litre pop bottles and windshield wash jugs when I’m out and about too.

 

[Bustercluck]

These were from last winter. First round at 546 yards.

 

[Bustercluck]

These were in march. I can’t remember if they were all first round hits. They were between 175 and 600 yard I think.

 

[PSE]

Apparently 30 is the official ‘statistical’ number to show the true cone of dispersion for life of barrel and load, but 10 is good enough to replicate it for zeroing as the 10 and 30 will be roughly same circle but the 30 just fills in a bunch more of the same circle.

You're right of course - more is always better for a truer representation but if I would have said 30 rounds instead of 10 in post #4, the protesting would have been off the charts LOL

As it is a lot of hunters will have enough difficulty justifying 10 rounds (cost wise) in 1 target group believing that to be a huge waste of resources not realizing that the real waste is a bunch of separate 3 shot groups that don't really tell you much of anything.

If I could have all the ammo back that I wasted chasing my tail using 3 shot groups when I was younger I would be a very happy man. Like they say "Too soon old - too late smart"

 

[TJCote]

I’m not sure what type of hunting requires a 10 or 30 shot group to confirm the cone of dispersion. I see that as a technique for target shooting and/or maybe extreme long range “shunting”.

If that’s your game, have at it.

The deep freeze is my measure of success for hunting. Group size is my measure of success for precision and target shooting.

I’ve used many guns over the years to fill the deep freeze. Some were better than others, but I’ve had success with guns that barely shot 3 into a dinner plate at 100 yds. I just kept the shots close.

As a hunter, the most important rule is “know your limits”. This encompasses:
Know your abilities; know your gun and ammo; know your game animal; anticipate your likely hunting conditions, weather, probable shooting positions and distance, etc. Practice your most likely shooting positions at your most likely shooting distances. Cold bore practice is best. The first shot is the one that really counts.

I don’t need a 10 or 30 shot cone of dispersion (from a bench) to kill a moose freehand at 150yds!

Practice, using real world hunting positions, is more valuable to me.

 

[jjohnwm]

The only real way to know if you can do it is to do it. We have a 5 or 6” diamond at our range placed at 500metres. I usually bring my hunting rifle along every range trip and cold bore that distance off the bench. I find my first shot is a tad low and left of the following shots. I aslo regularly shoot milk jugs, 2 litre pop bottles and windshield wash jugs when I’m out and about too.

This ^ is a very common situation, a hunting rifle that prints the first cold bore shot a small distance away from the following shots...although I would describe it as a rifle which prints all successive shots after the first one a slight distance away. Playing with words, yes, but...as long as we're playing, let's look at the title of the thread; it's supposed to be hunting accuracy. I will readily admit that I am not and never will be a long-range hunter; I like practicing at 400 and occasionally 500 yards, have no easy access to further, but in hunting a shot over 300 is virtually non-existent for me. Practicing longer makes shooting shorter easy.

So...let's say my hunting rifle...which I take to mean a rifle I use for hunting, not for endless bench shooting at 500 yards or more...prints its first cold-bore shot here, but the following shots go there. Guess what? That first cold bore shot is more important to me than all the others put together. I don't want to define my "cone of dispersion" and refine my zero to reflect its center, as its center is slightly off and thus zeroing for it is not perfect for that first all-important cold-bore shot.

I have used 10-shots or even more than that for rifles that behave like that...first shot off from the rest...but those targets take days to produce, because I shoot a shot and wait for the barrel to cool all the way back to ambient temperature. I have shot lots of groups that take over a week to produce, since I go out, shoot a single shot with that rifle, and then put it away until the next day. Sounds silly, feels silly, but...that group is a far more important source of info to me, regarding what I can do with that hunting rifle, than any similar group fired, even slowly, all at once. I now have what I suppose the egghead set would call a perfect cold-bore shot cone of dispersion analysis. What? All shots fired days apart, under different conditions, wearing different underwear and everything? Yes, because that's what hunting will be like.

Unbelievably dumb, right? I actually want my hunting rifle to place its very first shot right where I want it, rather than where the first 10...or 30!...will go on average! What a concept! Here's another shocker; once I am familiar with my hunting rifle...I will shoot it very sparingly after that. I will confirm zero before a hunt, I will shoot the odd group...yeah, three shots, sue me...but just as 99.999% of the shots I fire are not done while hunting, so also will those 99.999% of shots be fired with guns that I won't even use while hunting. None of my hunting rifles have high round counts. None of my high-round-count rifles will be used hunting.

As it is a lot of hunters will have enough difficulty justifying 10 rounds (cost wise) in 1 target group believing that to be a huge waste of resources not realizing that the real waste is a bunch of separate 3 shot groups that don't really tell you much of anything.

All of this 10-shot or 30-shot or whatever-number-shot talk is perfectly fine if you are shooting targets at long range. But it misses out on the important point above: lots of hunters aren't shooters. I enjoy shooting, I shoot most days on my place, and to me every single shot I fire, whether with a .177 pellet rifle or a .45-70...every single shot is valuable and worthwhile practice. But lots of guys who hunt...actually seem to hate shooting! They'll never target shoot just for fun. They want to zero with as few shots as possible, and they sure as hell don't want to change scopes or try different ammo or alter their rifles in any way because that means they need to shoot it some more to confirm zero. Either that, or they will do those things and then not even bother to confirm it! We all know guys like that...lots of them.

Are they lazy, or dumb, or...are they just hunters? Not shooters, just hunters. They just might have a better innate understanding of the fact that hunting will always be full of uncontrollable and unmeasurable factors that all the math in the world will never overcome.

If I could have all the ammo back that I wasted chasing my tail using 3 shot groups when I was younger I would be a very happy man. Like they say "Too soon old - too late smart"

Spending a week, or a year, or a decade or a lifetime doing a bunch of shooting teaches you things...lots of things. Methods, techniques, ideas, all of which contribute to your shooting going forward. Does it really make you smarter? Maybe...

Other people spend that same time shooting, and somehow manage to learn different things; not just hard-science numbers, but different ways to look at the whole picture. Does that make them smarter? Maybe...

Cheers, and good shooting.

Edited to add: Oops! Took me too long to type; TJCote said the same thing more succinctly.