Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[350 Mag]

Okay, using your EXPERTS criteria:

Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet


I have copied your Doubletap data:


DoubleTap 10mm

200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95

Comparing 200 gr bullets, the 10mm comes in at only 125 fps faster than the 45 ACP. 10mm will keep up at 1000fps for almost 100 yards, 45ACP will keep 1000 fps until about 85 yards. Whoppee...

I can't see any sane person taking that far a shot on a bear with either cartridge.

And the 230gr selections- difference of 30fps. Not enough to even mention.



And the 45ACP wins in bullet diameter...

He does say...."the 10mm and 41 Magnum have enough power to BREAK leg bones...something the lesser cartridges(including the 45 ACP) do not......"


I know its tough...

But sometimes it takes a BIGGER man to ADMIT he was wrong...and OWNED!!!


OH and yes...I am still a 10mm ZEALOT....


Rick, through his lack of response, has waved the white flag and decided he better not post anymore...you should do the same....afterall...you are no longer arguing with a novice...

You are arguing against "real life" experiences of JJ HACK...a man that has witnessed/and/or killed more North American Black Bears(with a handgun) than any other hunter in the history of hunting BLACK BEAR in NORTH AMERICA???

HIS WORDS....NOT MINE "45 ACP is PATHETIC...as well as 40 SHORT & WEAK and 38 SPECIAL...."

 

[Gatehouse]

Unfortunately, you are still refusing to acknowledge that JJ wrote that article no later than 2003 and his 45ACP experiences may have even been somewhat before then...

And he is basing his assesment on typical low pressure soft point ammunition that may have been carried by police officers of the time, and comparing it to the fairly new (and hotter loaded) 10mm

Clearly, when you compare apples to apples, using the higher pressure ammo data that you supplied form DBLTAP, there is almost no difference in performance between the 2 cartridges.

And the 45ACP clearly makes a larger wound channel, too.

 

[350 Mag]

Unfortunately, you are still refusing to acknowledge that JJ wrote that article no earlier than 2003 and his 45ACP experiences may have even been somewhat before then...

And he is basing his assesment on typical low pressure soft point ammunition that may have been carried by police officers of the time, and comparing it to the fairly new (and hotter loaded) 10mm

Clearly, when you compare apples to apples, using the higher pressure ammo data that you supplied form DBLTAP, there is almost no difference in performance between the 2 cartridges.

And the 45ACP clearly makes a larger wound channel, too.

I will "grant" you that observation...you may be right....

BUT...

DOUBLETAP 10mm exceeds book maxs....JUST LIKE DOUBLETAP 45....so THEREFORE using your twisted logic...that would elevate the 45 ACP to "BLACK BEAR HUNTER" and JJ would have to ELEVATE 10mm to "BLACK BEAR STOPPER"...


10mm IS KING....

 

[Gatehouse]

I will "grant" you that observation...you may be right....

BUT...

DOUBLETAP 10mm exceeds book maxs....JUST LIKE DOUBLETAP 45....so THEREFORE using your twisted logic...that would elevate the 45 ACP to "BLACK BEAR HUNTER" and JJ would have to ELEVATE 10mm to "BLACK BEAR STOPPER"...


10mm IS KING....

If you think that the 10mm DblTap ammo is "black bear stopper" then you would have to concede the 45ACP would get the same title, since the performance of the DBLTAP 10mm and 45ACP ammo is so similar, with a slight penetration edge going to the 10mm and the wound volume edge going to the ACP.

 

[Calum]

And the 45ACP clearly makes a larger wound channel, too.

Thank you Gathouse!

 

[atr]

It was a sweltering day , July of 1961 . No breeze , no cloud cover and the dust was rising from those big tires on Grandads Ford tractor . Leeds county just outside of Athens in southeastern Ontario . With me perched on the fender and Grandpa driving , we were leading the Holstein herd to the barn for milking time . The exhaust system had long since rotted off so between the fumes and the dust along with the heat , this trip wasn’t exactly fun .

Between Grandpas good eye and both of mine we spotted that groundhog at about the same time . I remember it like it was yesterday . Grandad was a hillbilly never without his broad brimmed straw hat with broken edges and I never saw him in anything except bibbed coveralls . In the front chest pocket he always carried a 9 shot , top break Iver Johnson .22 revolver and it was always loaded . He knew I loved that revolver and I had been shooting it since I was about 5 years old .

Grandpa reached up to the steering column and backed the throttle off to an idle and with his wrinkled , dusty hand with broken fingernails he drew the revolver from his pocket . Nodding his nose towards the groundhog Grandad said , if you can hit it , you can have it as he handed me the gun . In my whole life I had never been so nervous as I cocked the hammer back and took careful aim . Everything in the universe was riding on one shot as I knew the groundhog wouldn’t sit around for a second one .

That Ford tractor idled like an earthquake and only the groundhogs neck and head were visable over the stubble . Compounding the problem was the fact that the front sight was totally covering the woodchuck at 30 yards . The world went silent as I zoned in and took up the 10 pound trigger . The shot broke , the muzzle lifted and the groundhog was gone . I felt sick and back then I didn’t know any four letter words so I just lowered my head and said , son of a ##### .

Grandpa whooped out loud and stood up . You got him , he said , you got him . I couldn’t see him but from Grandads standing position , he could . He set the brake and both of us bailed off the tractor . It was a short sprint to the woodchuck and even though Grandpa was 60 years older then me , he wasn’t far behind . I had hit that groundhog square in the front teeth and killed him dead .

Grasping the Iver Johnson by the barrel I handed it , butt first back to Grandad . He took it , rolled it over in his hands and then reached down and tucked it in my belt . Grandpa passed away in 1966 and I lost his revolver somewhere along the shoreline of the Mattagami River in 1969 .

I’ve been shooting handguns since the mid 1950’s and continually carrying one since 1961 . Until about 1973 I didn’t know that there was such a thing as a permit to carry one . I joined a club in 1973 and got a permit to transport . The permit said , for target shooting , but it didn’t say where . My first , ‘approved ranges’ permit came in 1979 . There was another change in 1979 . For the first time the Ontario Fish and Game regulations stated that handguns , pistols or revolvers were no longer legal to hunt with . Most folks don’t know that but hunting with a handgun was totally legal in Ontario up until and including 1978 .

75 miles north of Sudbury , around a place called Shining Tree in October of 1978 I paddled my canoe to a landing with half of a small bull moose in it only to be met by two game wardens . They checked to see if it was properly tagged and commented on the beauty of my Ruger .41 magnum that was strapped on my hip . That was the last animal that I legally hunted in Canada with a handgun but in the years between 1961 and 1978 I hunted everything from grouse to moose from deer to bear .

In 1980 I started a black bear hunting/guiding/outfitting business and applied for my first ATC . I’ve had an ATC ever since for lawfull occupation , guiding and prospecting . The business was sold 12 years later but in that time clients of mine took over 400 black bears , many with me looking over their shoulder and I’ve taken at least 40 myself .

Of the 40 I’ve taken , I’m guessing 10 were legally hunted in Ontario prior to 1979 with handguns . Smith&Wesson .44 mag , Ruger .357 mag , Ruger .41 mag and a Colt .45 ACP . About 25 were taken after 1979 with rifles and shotguns from a Colt Delta H-Bar .223 to a .458 Winchester Mag . I took one
bear In Wisconsin with a .357 , about a dozen deer in Minnisota and Wisconsin and 3 hogs in Florida with .357’s , .44 mags and a .45 ACP . I have some experience but I’ll be the first one to admit that I can’t quote , chapter and verse from a ballistics table . Neither can bears .

I got into reloading late in the game , about 1980 and I have the paperwork to show 51 handguns , not including Grandpas . Under my ATC I have dispatched two black bears since 1980 . Both were in full charge mode , both were killed within feet , not yards and both were taken down with a .45 ACP . I have many other guns but I choose to carry a .45 because I can shoot it very fast and very accurately .

A buddy carries a .454 Casull and I thought about it , until I tried it . Black bears , unlike grizz are ambush predators . Usually a bad experience with a grizz is a territorial dispute and the grizz is going to maul you until you are no longer a threat . Although exceedingly rare black bears will mostly bluff charge over territory but if a black bear decides to make contact , it’s because it looks upon you as prey to be killed and eaten or to die while in the process of being eaten . The ambush comes from close range with very little warning or time to prepare .

Under almost clinical conditions I can draw and fire buddies .454 quite accurately . In the same time I can draw and fire 4 rounds with my .45 and while buddy is recovering recoil from his first shot going for the second , I can get 4 more away .

A 10 mil over a .45 , go for it or get a .460 or a .500 . One black bear was about 250 pounds and the other about 350 and both of them dropped within feet of the muzzle . At 50 yards a black bear is not a threat so no ballistic table matters . 50 yards is a hunting range not a defense position .

The above is narrowly speaking of black bears , .45’s and my ability to employ it quickly and accurately . Your milage may vary and in fact my milage would vary if I included grizz . If there is such a thing , the benefit of a grizz attack is that often the human participant has a slight amount of advanced warning by seeing menacing behavior or seeing the charge develop . The human may have time to deploy a firearm , if he has one . When the grizz has resolved the dispute the victim may survive if the grizz is satisfied that a threat no longer exists . In the case of a predatory black bear , it will ambush you from the side or behind from the cover of the thick stuff . Caliber is certainly important but the skill of the operator is paramount . Being a good student helps also . Guns , calibers , loads , ballistics and animal behavior . For anyone to say that a .45 is no good for defense because someone else has told them that a .45 is marginal at 50 yards for hunting is ridiculous .

Black bear are not a difficult animal to kill . Including my own and my clients we’ve taken over 400 . I’ve taken about 13 with handguns and half of those were with .45’s with two being in defensive situations . I have no access to a 10 mil but if I did and I could draw and shoot it as fast and as accurately as my .45 , I still wouldn’t consider it , not because of the caliber , but because I love my .45’s and they work very well for me , as long as I do my part . Caliber takes second fiddle to skill with regard to any adequate caliber comparison . You’re down to 2 or 3 seconds so shoot fast and accurately and while you’re trying to resolve , which is better , a .45 or a 10 mil , the bear will resolve you .

I’ve spent my life in the bush , I’ve spent my life hunting and shooting and I don’t feel underguned in black bear country with a .45 .

 

[Calum]

Wow, good story atr.

 

[agilent_one]

10mm? Meh.
45-08? Much better bear-stopper. Simple math.

 

[Rick]

Rick, through his lack of response, has waved the white flag and decided he better not post anymore...you should do the same....afterall...you are no longer arguing with a novice...

We are attempting to have a rational discussion with someone who is acting like an idiot.

I didn't stop responding to you as a sign of "waving the white flag". I stopped because you can't make an honest comparision to begin with - which is why you try stunts like comparing double stack 10mm's against single stack .45's when going on about all the extra ammunition a 10mm will carry (as though that will matter with Canada's laws and the few seconds a bear will give you).

I stopped because there is little more to be said to anyone else reading this thread - you don't matter, because narrow minds let in very little light.

I stopped because I know CO's in this province who worked predator control using dogs to tree dozens of bears and had no trouble killing those bears with their issue 40 S&W. I've shot two bears with a .38 Spl which pretty much dropped where they were shot, and they were pretty excited at the time. I've shot a fair number of wild boars with the "anemic" 9mm, along with about the same number of deer and stags - and watched other guys do the same. They all died pretty quickly, despite the "inadequate" cartridge and "inadequate" ball ammunition. Meanwhile, I'm supposed to discuss this endlessly with somebody who has absolutely NO experience whatsoever. Someone who has been shooting handguns for one whole year, has never killed ANY animal with a handgun, and in fact doesn't even carry a handgun - he kills paper targets at the range and that's the full extent of his handgun use.

I stopped because I had field work to do, not endlessly spend my time here amusing you. Field work where I DO carry a handgun on an ATC, incidentally. That's how I make the money that pays the bills.

And perhaps most of all, I stopped because you made your intent very clear a long time ago:

lets keep exploring this until......I win with the last word...

Given that you have vowed to have the last word, I'd be crazy to waste time out of my life seeing if I could outlast a logic-challenged zealot determined to have the last post. You may have nothing better to do with your life, but I do.

You are arguing against "real life" experiences of JJ HACK...a man that has witnessed/and/or killed more North American Black Bears(with a handgun) than any other hunter in the history of hunting BLACK BEAR in NORTH AMERICA???

Let's see... I have personally shot bears with the "inadequate" 38 Spl and watched them pretty much drop at the shots, and a .38 sure isn't a .45. I see another poster here hasn't had any problems killing black bears with a .45 ACP - including charging bears. CO's in this province have killed dozens of bears with 40 S&W's, and none of them have been eaten yet, or started a hue and cry for a bigger handgun.

Now you apparently know Hack, but I don't. So I had a read of the reams of material you've posted from your 10mm library relating to Hack. A few things jump off the page at me:

The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear’s chest.

Wow!

I mean, WOW! WOW! Man, we're learnin' now!

At first I thought a good part of the problem might be the fact this hunter was using a bullet a little too heavy to get good performance out of this caliber. BUT JJ HACK PERSONALLY SAW IT START SOME SORT OF FIRE IN THE BEAR THAT SMOKE COULD BE SEE COMING FROM THE HOLE FROM 20 YARDS DISTANT. MAN, THE GUY MUST HAVE BEEN USING TRACERS! Yes, he personally observed this while also observing the ineffectiveness of the round. All of this is true - not a word of exaggeration!

I have a question, gentle readers: how many of you have shot animals from 20-30 yards and observed SMOKE curling from the wound after the shot like ol' JJ Hack saw?

Now, if an "inadequate" .45 ACP can generate enough internal heat in the wound from 20 yards away to generate SMOKE... why doesn't my 358 Norma Magnum throwing a 250 grain bullet at just over 2900 fps have them downright bursting into flame?

I've never seen "smoke" coming from a wound from a handgun, even when destroying animals hit by vehicles from ten feet away or so. So, perhaps readers can understand that my bulls**t detector is furiously vibrating?

With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps.

Bulls**t detector is vibrating furiously again.

I've shot a couple of deer with a .270 and 130 grain bullets (I was an acolyte of Jack O'Connor as a young lad) and watched them run like hell for a couple of hundred yards before going down. O'Connor himself wrote about this same reaction himself, many, many times over the years. I suspect a few readers here have seen the same thing. Yet when JJ Hack shoots them with HIS .270 and HIS 130 grain bullets, they all leap in the air and fall within a few steps.

O-kaaaayyyyy.... the man has a magic rifle...

I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one.... I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska.

JJ Hack, meet Phil Shoemaker from Alaska. A man who has lived among both black and big-assed grizzlies bigger than anything you ever treed, and carried a... pathetic .357 Magnum to good effect. JJ, go talk with Phil and then laugh your ass off.

A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help.

I don't need a bulls**t detector for this one. Ol' JJ shouldn't have even tried passing this one off - too many anecdotes from the police, military, etc to give this much more than the horse laugh.

Well, that's enough of that. I think ol' JJ Hack's observations are... interesting. I do gotta get me some of them there rounds that leave smoke pouring out of the bullet holes though! I wonder if JJ will tell me where to git me some.

I'll go with my personal experience and that of the CO's I know instead, thanks. The stories aren't nearly as dramatic - no smoke billowing out of bullet wounds and stuff like that - but the bears all seem to go flop when shot just fine. Hack's probably sell better, however...

But let's cut to the chase here: in a couple of instances now you've said I claimed the .45 ACP was superior to the 10mm. That's rubbish. Let's get back to what this is all about. You proclaimed:

Normal .45 ACP is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

The 180 gr Gold Dot actually out EXPANDS the much larger 45 and still out-penetrates...numbers don't lie. which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department...Faster, Flatter shooting, more accurate, more energy, more capacity, better penetration etc etc etc...

To which I responded:

The 10mm probably is the much better choice for someone with an ATC. On the other hand, as rgv has pointed out, the CO's seem to kill bears quite dead with 40 S&W's when they have to, and the .45 with modern loads has more thump than the 40.

Bottom line? I think those declaring the .45 ACP belongs in a museum or expecting it to be shoved aside by the 10mm will be long dead, buried, and forgotten themselves before either of those two wishful thoughts ever come to pass.
...
Which leads me to a real crazy thought: maybe it's better off to be able to shoot fast and accurately with whatever you happen to be carrying, than to have THE ULTIMATE BEAR GUN and presume its' mere presence is some sort of talisman that drives off bears.

So here we are. The fact of the matter is there isn't a 10mm out there that is beating the .45 ACP's in bullseye and PPC competition. Not relevant to self defense, but pretty much illustrates the BS behind the claim the 10mm is more accurate. If it were, competitors would be going to it in droves.

The 180 grain Gold Dot does NOT out-expand and out-penetrate the .45 ACP. It out expands the .45 Gold Dot by a whole .01" of an inch, while penetrating the same distance (using the measurebation figures you supplied, not mine). The .45, given it's larger diameter to begin with, leaves a much larger wound channel, which Fackler says is the real key to evaluating stopping power. But you don't want to go there.

And having lauded the 180 grain Gold Dot in the 10mm as you have for its' expansion and penetration, let's just compare the two to see how far the poor .45 Auto lags behind.

They have exactly the same penetration depth.
The 10mm expands a whopping .01" greater than the .45.
The 10mm has 675 ft/lbs of energy versus 520 ft/lbs for the .45
They both have 33 lbs-feet of momentum
The 10mm has a Taylor KOV of 13 while the .45 has a KOV of 14
The 10mm has a smaller permanent wound cavity than the .45

Never mind which is "better". Remember this bit:

Normal .45 ACP is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

The 180 gr Gold Dot actually out EXPANDS the much larger 45 and still out-penetrates...numbers don't lie. which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department.

So.. the fabulous 10mm 180 grain Gold Dot that out expands and out penetrates is okay with 15.25" of penetration and .96" of expansion, but the .45 ACP 230 grain Gold Dot that also penetrates 15.25" but expands to .01" less is inadequate and "lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun".

Right...

Gentle reader, look at those various comparative measurements and ask yourself if the .45 falls so far behind what the 10mm produces with this 10mm round that supposedly out-expands and out-penetrates the .45 (not) that it can be considered ".45 ACP belongs in a museum, old cartridge, past its prime and quite easily a joke when compared to 10mm Auto" as our friend 350 Mag has claimed in his posts.

Personally, I don't see enough difference between the .45 and 10mm Gold Dot of our friend loves so for its' penetration and expansion to matter in the real world - except to those whose experience mostly consists of measurebating, memorizing ballistics tables, and killing paper at the range. There are people who actually carry handguns in their profession for self defense - and people who kill paper on the range when they aren't memorizing ballistics tables.

In fact, let's look one last time at 350Mag's Double Tap data - ammunition that he doesn't have, has never fired a round of, and which wouldn't kill paper on the approved gun range he is restricted to any better than the cheapest practice ammo - but he has all the specs on.

Look at the various 10mm loads that he lists and then data not only for the .45, but the also "inadequate" .357 and .40 S&W

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

DoubleTap .45ACP
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"

It looks like 350 Mag will have to tell any 10mm owner using the 135 gr. Nosler JHP, 155 gr Gold Dot, 165 gr Gold Dot, 165 gr. Golden Saber, and possibly the 180 gr. XTP and 180 gr. Gold Dot that they are using loads that are "a joke". If they aren't shooting the 200 gr. XTP round - the crazy fools - they're shooting ammunition little better than the .40 "short and weak".

Go ahead - use 350 Mag's ballistics data with this ballistic's calculator:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

See just how head and shoulders all those 10mm rounds stand above not just the .45 ACP, but the pathetic .40 "Short & Weak" and .357 Magnum. Then ask yourself if their performance really is that far behind the 10mm to deservedly be calling them "a joke".

Two parting thoughts. First, while 350 Mag is killing paper on the range and frantically measurebating with his enormous collection of ballistics charts, I and others like me will be carrying a handgun in the real world on a CCW in the US and on an ATC in Canada while working in my profession.

Second, while I still don't own a .45 ACP and probably never will, those who do can buy a relatively inexpensive spring, buffer, and a handful of cases and have a .45 ACP that is far more ahead of 350 Mag's 10mm than his 10mm is ahead of normal .45 ACP loads. Run .45 caliber 200 grain bullets at 1450 fps through that ballistics calculator against any of 350 Mag's beloved Double Tap loads. No barrel chambered for a wildcat required, just a spring and buffer swap, and enough prepped cases to have what you hope you never need.

And worst of all, 350 Mag can stuff powder in his 10mm cases until he blows up his gun, and he'll never get that performance that .45 ACP owners can have. Expansion ratio just isn't on his side.

The 10mm is a very good caliber. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and it is a very good choice in an autoloader for an ATC pistol. But to seize on that caliber and proclaim the .45 and its' performance to be antiquated and a "joke" is just the sign of a newby.

am lernin...someday I will be as good/smart as you....

I suppose that is remotely possible.

However, it won't change the fact you still won't be doing anything with that 10mm other than measurebating and using those Double Tap loads (if you ever get them) for nothing more than killing paper targets.

Therein lies the difference...

And now, 350 Mag, you can have the last word you're determined to have...

 

[Gatehouse]

Great read, atr!

Rick, I have seen "smoke" from a bear shot at about 10 yards wiht a .280. BUt...Its not "smoke" the thing didn't catch on fire. It's steam from a very hot bullet impacting wet bear hide and bear blood. So, while JJ has lots of experience with killing animals (he does, as he has been an outfitter here and African PH still) I can't see his description of "smoke" as being accurate.

Maybe the cops were using black powder loads at close ranges?







###### Cartridge is KING

 

[muh-muh-muh-mauser]

10mm IS KING....

Thank you sir

 

[G37]

Would I be incorrect in saying that this is the ultimate bear defense thread? I haven't read one with this much passion or enthusiasm in a long while Ok... now that we've settled that.

Let's toss in .223 Remington vs 10mm vs .45acp vs .357magnum for bears .

Which would you want for a Bear? I know that the .223 destroys all others for velocity/energy, but the bullets are so small and light. Anyone want to take a shot a selecting the lesser evil??

 

[Rick]

Rick, I have seen "smoke" from a bear shot at about 10 yards wiht a .280. BUt...Its not "smoke" the thing didn't catch on fire. It's steam from a very hot bullet impacting wet bear hide and bear blood. So, while JJ has lots of experience with killing animals (he does, as he has been an outfitter here and African PH still) I can't see his description of "smoke" as being accurate.

Exactly. But he said "smoke" not "steam", and one would assume an outdoorsman knows the difference between smoke and steam. And especially when we're talking about the effect from a pistol bullet trundling along at 1000 fps or less, not a centerfire rifle, and at 20 yards.

Must have been a lot of smoke pouring out of that bear for it to be visible against a black hide from 20 yards distant... all from a pistol bullet coming from an "inadequate" caliber.

Sure, I believe that...

Hack makes his living at whacking critters, so I imagine he knows more than a thing or two about shooting them. But he also does well writing about what he does and what he sees - and if you have to slant your writing a little to promote your pet pony, add a little drama and excitement to make it more readable... well, he ain't the first. Jack O'Conner made a career of lauding the .270 Winchester over the 30/06 when in reality there ain't much to choose between them - he slanted his writing a bit as well. Elmer Keith did the same thing. Jeff Cooper - same thing.

So let's just say JJ Hack isn't doing anything different that gun writers have been doing since before he was even a gleam in his daddy's eye. Writers like to call it "artistic license"...

Maybe the cops were using black powder loads at close ranges?

I was thinking something more along the lines of bullets coated in phosphorus...

###### Cartridge is KING

EXACTLY.

Gate, I have a new Pentax K10D camera. I should have taken it with me the other day up Perry Creek, but I was already so loaded down with crap, which was the reason I had a handgun instead of a shotgun to begin with. I saw the most beautiful, multi-hued grumbly bear that I think I've ever seen. Hide was in perfect shape, not rubbed at all. Bumped into him/her just sitting there like a dog, catching the afternoon rays while doing the bear zen thing or whatever. Sunlight was backlighting the fur... beautiful. The pelt was so shiny it looked like it had been gone over with that Mane and Tail stuff they put on the coats of show dogs and show horses to make them really stand out.

Had seen a black bear gettin' out of Dodge on a slide across the way a little bit earlier, so I wasn't particularly suprised to see the grumbly bear after that.

And there I was without my high speed, low drag, new camera... that sucks.

 

[Gatehouse]

LEH open there?

 

[Rick]

Would I be incorrect in saying that this is the ultimate bear defense thread?

Yup, you would be.

At the end of the day, this thread is simply about whether or not the .45 ACP is so hopelessly behind the 10mm in performance potential that it can accurately be described as a "joke" or "museum piece". My take on it is that it really isn't that far behind in the real world - not "better", or "best", or anything like that. I call it close enough that there isn't a whole lot of difference when you're talking about bears closing to within fistfighting distance. If people choose to think the small differences in numbers prove there is a huge difference between the two... well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Bear defense with me starts with a 12 gauge shotgun. When I am working where there are cougars and bears to be mindful of, I never carry a handgun when I can carry a shotgun. Even though it is legal to do so, I am long past the point where the "cool" factor of carrying a handgun influences me. The smart thing is to have the best tool for the job, and a handgun just ain't it when the option of a long gun is there as well.

The reason I carry a handgun so often - like rgv, Geologist, and others - is because by the time I have all my stuff on, a backpack loaded with crap, other bits and pieces of gear slung here and there, a handgun is really the only option other than simply going unarmed. Getting in and out of helicopters all day only adds to the confusion if there's a long gun involved.

But if this is now supposed to morph into a "bear defense for bush workers" thread, my approach is that real bear defense starts with a 12 gauge.

Your comment about the .223 Remington is topical, however. The measurebators love their reams of charts, but figures like muzzle energy, momentum, velocity, etc are just that - numbers. They give a basis for comparison, but they don't tell the whole story on how those bullets actually perform on game of various sizes.

Long before my time, but according to the writers of the day, when the 220 Swift first came out hunters swooned over the numbers it produced. And then, apparently, idiots went out shooting grizzly bears, African plains game, etc with the Swift. Not surprisingly, the magical numbers didn't translate into performance on game that size (something that probably didn't surprise the more pragmatic hunters of the time).

On the other side of the coin, there's the old black powder cartridges from the era of the buffalo hunters. When you look at the numbers the loads of that day generated, they are absolutely pedestrian and would put a lot of measurebators to sleep - if they bothered to read past the first line. Yet despite the crappy looking numbers, they managed to slaughter hundreds of thousands of buffalo with great efficiency using those rounds.

Someday we may actually develop some sort of measurement scale that closely models effect on game through some combination of velocity, energy, momentum, diameter, bullet weight, expansion ratio, permanent wound cavity, stretch cavity, etc. But we ain't there yet, and I doubt I'll ever see an accurate performance model in my lifetime.

Now I gotta get off my ass and go earn some coin.

 

[Rick]

LEH open there?

Yup, but I didn't put in for a draw because I don't hunt grumbly bears anymore. Bye.

 

[350 Mag]

Thank you sir

+1 more for the 10mm (some of US) no the difference between GOOD choice and BETTER...

 

[agilent_one]

Hey 10mm guys:

The .45-08:

250grs @ 1200fps
230grs @ 1250fps
200grs @ 1400fps.

The nice thing is that any reliable 45acp w/ a bigger recoil spring and shock-buff can handle these.

Seems to blow the 10mm out of the water, doesn't it?

 

[Dave L.]

Let's toss in .223 Remington vs 10mm vs .45acp vs .357magnum for bears .

*jabs hand in air*

I vote for the .700 Nitro Express!

- Dave.

 

[350 Mag]

Before all this B.S got started this was my post way back on page#2 of this HOT TOPIC....

This same post was quoted a few posts later by Gatehouse...so it was not edited for content...

I have allready acknowledged that I was reffering to Normal 45 ACP....NOT..45 Super, 451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco , and 460 Rowland.

So lets not bring this point up again....Find a quote where I said the 10mm is superior to the 45-08, 45 Super or Rowland or Detonics???

All along we were dealing with 45 ACP vs. 10mm Auto(factory loads).



As a matter of fact...

I talked to Gunnar last month about setting up a 45-08 and he was sending me some brass last week...so lets not go there again...

He was asking about .357 or 10mm....NOT .45 ACP??

Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

.45 ACP belongs in a museum, old cartridge, past its prime and quite easily a joke when compared to 10mm Auto which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department...Faster, Flatter shooting, more accurate, more energy, more capacity, better penetration etc etc etc.