IE they lend themselves to reduce the human error for individual task.
Get them in a vice and shoot them, they are equal in precision shooting.
Lets poke the beehive. 22LR Heavy barrels purly cosmetic for rifles under $1000
- Thread starter Canadiankeeper
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IE they lend themselves to reduce the human error for individual task.
Get them in a vice and shoot them, they are equal in precision shooting.
I would love to see this footage! (not doubting you, it sounds logical) I just don't see it on the paper results. I would love to see this video and the test results for myself. I think that this plays SUCH a small factor that at 50 yards, even 100... We cant see that it is there.
Hypothesizing parameters in their extremes is a legitimate way to project the flow of outcomes... what would be more accurate; a barrel as thin as a straw or as thick as a 45 gallon drum? Obviously I am being facetious, but my point is illustrated... the next question is one of "measurability"... can the difference between the extremes be measured and to what degree and then, at what point between the extremes does it become functionally irrelevant to the measurable outcome?
Dito I wish to see it.
Dizzy has no need or desire to prove anything to anyone. Folks are free to believe whatever they wish. To some rotational torque of a 22 barrel has no significance so be it. I could care less.
To others who understand the science of metal, forces both internal and external how a lead projectile acts in a barrel to those folks rotational torque is relevant. There is a reason bench rest shooters use tuners on 22's. Some guys understand the science some don't..... Most understand the results..
The op asked if a bull barrel was more accurate than skinny barrel and the answer is a resounding yes if all else is equal. Of course some barrels are better than others due to metallurgy....Grain of the metal...
Quality of manufacture or whatever other reason..
If bull barrels were not better they wouldn't be found on the high end accurate 22's
To others who understand the science of metal, forces both internal and external how a lead projectile acts in a barrel to those folks rotational torque is relevant. There is a reason bench rest shooters use tuners on 22's. Some guys understand the science some don't..... Most understand the results..
The op asked if a bull barrel was more accurate than skinny barrel and the answer is a resounding yes if all else is equal. Of course some barrels are better than others due to metallurgy....Grain of the metal...
Quality of manufacture or whatever other reason..
If bull barrels were not better they wouldn't be found on the high end accurate 22's
I agree with this statement...
However, this is no guarantee that any given "thin" barrel won't be more accurate than any given "heavy (thick)" barrel, due to the plethora of other factors involved.
But stated as a generality, the science is sound.
No, I entirely understand it. It makes perfect sense. There is a reason they are found on high end 22's absolutely. Those high end rifles also use better metal, machining, parts, balancing ect.
I'm trying to say that sub 1000 dollar rifles have NONE of those details. Thus mitigate the benefits of a heavy barrel to a point that there is no measureable benefit. Simply that heavy barrels on sub $1000 rifles are cosmetic or personal preference at best.
100% If this is a rail gun and a test of barrels with identical bores and ammo. The "heavier" barrel will win. My argument exactly is that on sub $1000 there are so many other factors they render the benefits of a thicker barrel mute. Bringing me to the conclusion that heavy barrels are at best personal preference and have no effect on accuracy of rifles under $1000.
Faulty conclusion... but you own it.
You state, If this is a rail gun and a test of barrels with identical bores and ammo. The "heavier" barrel will win.
It doesn't matter if it is a rail gun or not... with identical bores and ammo the edge goes to the heavier barrel.
Don't compare semi autos to bolt actions, standard 22LR chambers to match chambers and a good shooter to a poor shooter.
You state, If this is a rail gun and a test of barrels with identical bores and ammo. The "heavier" barrel will win.
It doesn't matter if it is a rail gun or not... with identical bores and ammo the edge goes to the heavier barrel.
Don't compare semi autos to bolt actions, standard 22LR chambers to match chambers and a good shooter to a poor shooter.
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actually...........they are equally as accurate as each other when both cut to 11 inches........and after that believe it or not but the heavier barrel takes the lead......anything over 14.5 inches is just for cosmetics and sight length and actually harms accuracy by thieving velocity through drag and resistance........
rimfires are very sensitive, especially with sub sonic ammo, the bullet is in the barrel for a lot of vibrations regardless of barrel contour.....so much so that at a real level of competition you'll likely see no less then 3 yes that's THREE tuners on any rifle barrel again regardless of contour and length
rimfires are very sensitive, especially with sub sonic ammo, the bullet is in the barrel for a lot of vibrations regardless of barrel contour.....so much so that at a real level of competition you'll likely see no less then 3 yes that's THREE tuners on any rifle barrel again regardless of contour and length
Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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It won't matter skinny or fat barrel, the biggest contributor to 22LR accuracy is ammo.What shoots well in one barrel or gun won't shoot well in another. Heck, most of the time if it's not from the same lot you can't be guaranteed consistency.
When I was a subscriber to Precision Shooter they did a huge study of rimfire ammo and gave up trying get any results because of this inconsistency. IIRC this was when BR50 was starting to take off in the US and there was an uproar from it's practitioners.
"We know the ammo is inconsistent but we like the challenge" The editor or author was blown away as the whole point of benchrest is to get rid of all variables and here were these shooters saying it's okay we like it that way.
When I was a subscriber to Precision Shooter they did a huge study of rimfire ammo and gave up trying get any results because of this inconsistency. IIRC this was when BR50 was starting to take off in the US and there was an uproar from it's practitioners.
"We know the ammo is inconsistent but we like the challenge" The editor or author was blown away as the whole point of benchrest is to get rid of all variables and here were these shooters saying it's okay we like it that way.
wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Northern Alberta
while i cant say anything sciency to add to the conversation because im not a metal worker or projectile or velocity doctorate student ill add what i can.....
bull barrels are prettier!
bull barrels are prettier!
lmao... I'm not comparing semi to bolts.
I'm comparing barrels on SUB $1000 buck rifles
I'm also taking out the shooter error.
Also rifles under 1000 and non-custom rifles DO NOT HAVE match chambers...
All of this is stated in THE FIRST post. My god people.
THIS ENTIRE POST IS EXCLUDING CUSTOM AND MATCH RIFLES IE WHY I SAID 1000 AND UNDER.
TAKE THE PERSON OUT OF THE SITUATION.
We are not comparing ruger 10/22's to match annies... We are definitely not looking at the shooter skill level.
Lock the rifles into a vice. Fire. Allow barrel to cool. Fire... Repeat...
CZ 455 HB vrs VZ 455 sporter
Savage MKII HB Vrs Savage MKII
Marlin HB vrs marlin
Ruger 10/22 HB vrs ruger 10/22
None of the HB's are guaranteed to out shoot their sportier counter part given time to cool and taking the shooter out of the equation.
The base of this post is sayin, hey... Non match/custom rifles that are mass produced and cost under $1000 have so much other BS going on that you can not guarantee that a heavy barrel will help its precision. You can hope, and maybe it will help you as a shooter. From the machining inconsistency in the bore, chambers, bolts ect. There is no way to guarantee a heavy barrel will out shoot the sport barrel. There is also no guarantee the sport will out shoot the heavy. It is simply a cosmetic feature or one that a person finds preferable for weight/handling/heat dispersion or any other reason they please. End of the day, buy a rifle and the same make but heavy barrel. Strap them down and shoot groups allowing proper time for each barrel to cool. You have no IDEA what one is going to group better...
Now lets not even get into ammo inconsistencies. The HB is less picky on ammo and will retain accuracy more consistently. As we have learned and had pointed out to us.
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I'm stating facts. I clearly said no match rifles, no custom rifles. Only off the shelf rifles under $1000. We are not looking at individual shooters skills. We are locking the rifles down, giving them time to cool when shooting.
We have had very knowledgeable members point out to us the benefits of heavy barrels on high quality rifles with good bores and chambers. We have also had it pointed out that most barrels in the fitting category do no meet machining standards to make a noticeable difference in inherent accuracy. Only that they may be less picky in ammunition selection.
Everyone wants to argue match/custom/high quality rifles. That are not in this discussion. We are purposely excluding them. We are also purposely excluding the individual shooters skill and preferences. Everyone is forgetting this also.
Many of us have agreed that you need a high quality chamber and machining in the bore to obtain an increased accuracy benefit from a heavy barrel.
Rifles under $1000 do not have match chambers and bores. This brings me to my point that larger factors are out weighing the barrel thickness factor.
Making it impossible to guarantee that the heavy barrel rifle will out shoot the sport.
If you find people stating facts, then using logic to come to a conclusion offensive and rude. You may be a liberal. (We can definitely agree I'm being rude here)
I also find it amusing I have called no one a name, or directed any comment at one individual (up until this point). Yet you call me a rude amongst other things. Let me kick you off your high horse here and tell you to look at what you just did. Made a direct comment insulting someone. Take a look at your own actions. You disagree with someone, don't seem to be reaching a common ground so you switch to name calling and "blocking" ... Liberal facebook tactics if I have ever seen it.
If anyone can show me 2 HB savages that will outshoot 5 Savage sport barreled rifles using 5 different types of match ammunition, please do so.
The same for CZ, ruger, marlin, browning.
One HB may shoot great, and out shoot 4 out of 5 sport rifles, using 4 out of the 5 types of ammo. The other may shoot ok, and be out shot by 3 of the 5 sport rifles, using 3 of the types of ammo.
See what I'm getting at, there is no way to guarantee that a HB will out shoot a sport barrel rifle in 22lr. To many inconsistencies in the chambers, bores (machining in general) and ammunition to guarantee a heavy barrel out shoots the sport on a rifle less then $1000. There is a likelihood that the HB will be a little less picky in finding that perfect alignment of things to go properly to get a shooter. In the end it dwells down onto the individuals personal choice.
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That is a spurious conclusion. There is a point at which it is possible to pass the limit of what is reasonable before reaching extremes. That is to say, you can take an example too far and it becomes impossible to sensibly draw conclusions.
Dizzy apparently has nothing with which to buttress his claim. I wish he had some information so that I could learn more and perhaps begin to understand the science as he says he does.
Is there any evidence that Savage or CZ rimfires with bull barrels are always, or even usually, more accurate than their siblings with sporter barrels? If anyone has information that demonstrates this, please share it.
No one can. They can only hypothesize. I'm sure it is measurable in high quality fine tuned custom rifles, or in a lab... As for the mass produced rifles on the shelf for under $1000 I think the heavy barrel will only help you find consistency with multiple types of ammo but not inherently increase accuracy.
I still have yet to be shown the Savage MK2 HB that out shoots all and or the majority of other savage 22 rifles.
