Lets poke the beehive. 22LR Heavy barrels purly cosmetic for rifles under $1000
- Thread starter Canadiankeeper
- Start date
You can't pass a "reasonable limit" because the point of taking it to extremes is to hypothesize beyond reasonable limits in order to better grasp the trends.
At any rate... I am done with this smoke blowing...
Good day and good shooting, gentlemen...
Don't know if post is pertaining to 22 only or all rimfire but there have been more than a few guys trade their savage bmag 17wsm sporter models in for ones with heavy barrels due to accuracy issues and been much happier once they did.
Only 22lr.
here are all the answers.........this should keep you reading for a week
ht tp://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm
measuring barrels from .8 of an inch to 1.25 no taper......graphs...videos......and chit even I don't wanna understand.....and then they compare it all to the same barrels with tuners, disregard that part as it doesn't interest you
ht tp://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm
measuring barrels from .8 of an inch to 1.25 no taper......graphs...videos......and chit even I don't wanna understand.....and then they compare it all to the same barrels with tuners, disregard that part as it doesn't interest you
When a cartridge is fired in a chamber, the barrel undergoes many stresses. It begins to vibrate when the firing pin starts its fall and these vibrations increase dramatically from then on. During recoil and while the bullet is still in the barrel, the barrel will whip vertically. This happens because the thrust axis of the rifle is above the centerline of the stock. During recoil the barrel comes back and up. The muzzle will lag behind the rest of the barrel in this movement and the vertical whipping motion is set up. While these vibrations of the barrel are very small, they do exist. The stiffer a barrel is, the less the muzzle will jump around. This brief description is of course an oversimplification of the dynamics that take place, but they do point out the type of barrel movements occurring and why a stiffer barrel is more accurate. …”
stiffer barrel is more accurate.......only one may to make a barrel stiff.......cut it back to 11 inches......or double the diameter
stiffer barrel is more accurate.......only one may to make a barrel stiff.......cut it back to 11 inches......or double the diameter
Saved and favorited.
No doubt the physics are there. Absolutely make a difference with high end bench rest 22lr not arguing that at all.
I'm speaking towards stock mid/low end 22lr rifles. I'm still not convinced on the mid/low end rifles being a guaranteed a better rifle due to a heavy barrel. With the mid/low end rifles that do not have a tuner on them (ie not modified or custom). There are still sporting rifles that shoot better. I think this is because of the mass production errors are creating more of an issue then the heavy barrel is able to help out. Still resulting in poor shooting rifles. It feels like you go and buy a 22 lr rifle other then cz, annies, or custom rifles. You are taking a shot in the dark about getting a "shooter" or not... I have had regular barrel cz 455 out shoot the varmint 452 and 455... I have had a savage regular barrel out shoot the heavy barrel.
Guys, guys! You know what turns a rifle into a "benchrest" rifle? The act of resting it on a bench while shooting.... 
Now, there are certainly one piece rests, stock styles, and barrel contours that should be utilized to eek out the utmost accuracy possible while one shoots in this discipline, but we're kinda arguing something that isn't relevant to the original post.
Canadiankeeper understands the answer to what he was asking now. In the cheap rifle market barrel contour does not = accuracy guaranteed.
I think people have the perception heavy barrels are more accurate is because when they are shooting ammo they do not "like" the target results are better than a lightweight barrel shooting ammo that is not in tune with it. When both contours are shooting ammo that is "in tune" with the barrel (I.E. they "like" the ammo) there should be no accuracy difference if the bore quality were exactly the same between the two specimens.
Mr. Keeper, CZ's should be on that list of "shot in the dark if they're accurate or not" 2/2 455's have been crap for me.
Now, there are certainly one piece rests, stock styles, and barrel contours that should be utilized to eek out the utmost accuracy possible while one shoots in this discipline, but we're kinda arguing something that isn't relevant to the original post.Canadiankeeper understands the answer to what he was asking now. In the cheap rifle market barrel contour does not = accuracy guaranteed.
I think people have the perception heavy barrels are more accurate is because when they are shooting ammo they do not "like" the target results are better than a lightweight barrel shooting ammo that is not in tune with it. When both contours are shooting ammo that is "in tune" with the barrel (I.E. they "like" the ammo) there should be no accuracy difference if the bore quality were exactly the same between the two specimens.
Mr. Keeper, CZ's should be on that list of "shot in the dark if they're accurate or not"
2/2 455's have been crap for me.
I don't know if you are trolling or serious. Either way, both made me smile! I love it! LOL Bubba is looking for a job at a logging company.
As they near the office, the foreman stops the truck and asks Bubba to step outside.
He hands him a piece of chalk and tells him, "See that tree over there? I want you to mark an X on the front of that tree!!"
The foreman thinks to himself, "Idiot, how would he know which is the front of the tree?"
When Bubba reaches the tree, he goes around it in a circle while looking at the ground. He then reaches up and places a white X on the trunk.
He walks back to the foreman and hands him the chalk. "That thar's the front," the redneck says.
The foreman laughs to himself and asks sarcastically, "How in the world do you know that's the front of the tree?"
The good ol' boy looks down at his feet, while rubbing the toe of his left boot cleaning it in the gravel and replies, "Cuz somebody took a crap behind it!"
I will take your statement literally. There is no sarcastic font, loll's or anything to make me think you are joking... (I really hope you are)
The "front" of a tree is depending on your point of view from it. Just like drawing a circle on the ground, asking 4 people to stand around it. Then have each person show you the "top" of the circle. It will be different for everyone.
Now my "view" of a bench gun is generally single shot, very heavy barrel, high flat comb, flat wide front on the stock and has a very light trigger. Usually a heavier rifle as weight is not an issue. Machining tolerances are very tight and smooth/well done. Match grade chambers normally accompany as well.
I cant think of any rifles off the top of my head that fit all of this for under 1000 bucks chambered in 22lr. You can certainly spend more and customize a rifle to attempt to check off the list. Then try and call it a bench rifle. It is not a bench rifle.
I'm not arguing what turns a rifle into a certain type of discipline. I'm challenging the "Fact" that heavy barrels "guarantee" a more accurate rifle in mid/low end 22lr rifles. Why I use the term sport or sporting is because that is the common vernacular for a "regular" barrel.
***PS I love ur stuff!*** lol
Guys, guys! You know what turns a rifle into a "benchrest" rifle? The act of resting it on a bench while shooting....
Canadiankeeper understands the answer to what he was asking now. In the cheap rifle market barrel contour does not = accuracy guaranteed.
I think people have the perception heavy barrels are more accurate is because when they are shooting ammo they do not "like" the target results are better than a lightweight barrel shooting ammo that is not in tune with it. When both contours are shooting ammo that is "in tune" with the barrel (I.E. they "like" the ammo) there should be no accuracy difference if the bore quality were exactly the same between the two specimens.
Mr. Keeper, CZ's should be on that list of "shot in the dark if they're accurate or not"
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
This guy gets it.
Oh CZ's absolutely are I mentioned them a few times. I have lucked out, mine have all been acceptable.
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prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
I can tell you what has been my personal experience.
Cz 452s. No experience with 455 and plan on keeping it that way. The heavy barrel shot better on average. The light barrels are a lot more fussy as to what they like and don't like. Yes with there favorite types of ammo they shoot just as well but with there disliked ammo the heavy shot groups half the size. The lux shot better on average with its disliked ammo than the style. The lux has a longer but heavier barrel. So here I would say that yes heavier shot better.
Savage 22s. Same thing as the cz. Except the light barrel was even worse than the cz when shooting ammo it didn't like and ammo it likes was harder to find meaning there was fewer of it. The heavies shot much better on average.
Ruger 1022. These shouldn't even be talked about in this conversation. The ruger factory heavy barrel has a tighter chamber than the light barrels. Owners manual tells you so. As far as we know the cz and savage all have the same chambers. Getting that out of the way a ruger factory heavy will shoot much better on average than a light barrel. And a green mountain will shoot a noticeable amount better yet and with each upgrade in barrel on the 1022 it gets less and less fussy. Meaning the groups with ammo it does not like get smaller.
Cz 452s. No experience with 455 and plan on keeping it that way. The heavy barrel shot better on average. The light barrels are a lot more fussy as to what they like and don't like. Yes with there favorite types of ammo they shoot just as well but with there disliked ammo the heavy shot groups half the size. The lux shot better on average with its disliked ammo than the style. The lux has a longer but heavier barrel. So here I would say that yes heavier shot better.
Savage 22s. Same thing as the cz. Except the light barrel was even worse than the cz when shooting ammo it didn't like and ammo it likes was harder to find meaning there was fewer of it. The heavies shot much better on average.
Ruger 1022. These shouldn't even be talked about in this conversation. The ruger factory heavy barrel has a tighter chamber than the light barrels. Owners manual tells you so. As far as we know the cz and savage all have the same chambers. Getting that out of the way a ruger factory heavy will shoot much better on average than a light barrel. And a green mountain will shoot a noticeable amount better yet and with each upgrade in barrel on the 1022 it gets less and less fussy. Meaning the groups with ammo it does not like get smaller.
Lets try this again
A harmonic wave in a 22lr barrel is 8.25-8.75 inches long depending on the barrel material and other factors. 2 identical barrels from the same manufacturer may have different harmonic wave lengths which has to do with consistency of the cellular structure of the metal itself. 22lr barrels always vibrate when fired.....Always. this vibration causes the muzzle to move and flip like the tail of a whip. When you fire a 22 without a projectile the muzzle whips in almost a perfect up and down motion as the only outside influences exerting any force on it are gravity and shooter.....which are Holding the rifle down and the tip of the barrel down so the barrel tip moves against the resistence which makes it go up and if course back down again. If you hold the rifle sideways and fire without a bullet the barrel muzzle still flips in an up and down pattern and it's almost a perfect vertical vibration. It doesn't whip sideways as some would suspect.
So what happens to the muzzle whip when you introduce a lead round to the equation? It changes as the lead bullet exerts a lot of force via friction as it's getting forced out of the barrel in a rotational motion. This rotation of the bullet puts a rotational force on the barrel causing the harmonics of the barrel to move from an up and down pattern to more of a rotational pattern. It's like a guitar string. You can get it to move in different ways depending how you pluck it. This rotational wave in the barrel causes the muzzle (ever so slightly) to move in a 360 degree pattern. Not vertical like it does without a projectile We all know 22 bullets travel at different speeds so they exit the muzzle at different times and depending on where the muzzle is pointing when the bullet exits will determine the point of impact. We have all seen the results of this on our targets as we don't get vertical stringing. Our bullets are all over the place with 22's. Unlike centerfires which can produce vertical stringing
Why is this more of an issue in 22's vs centerfires. 22 barrels are typically made of softer steel than cf so the barrel wave amplitudes are larger having more affect on muzzle whip.
Lead is softer than copper so the shape of a lead bullet changes more drastically in a bore than copper ultimately resulting in more friction on the bore therefore more energy transfer to the bore causing more rotational forces (torque) in a 22. Copper exerts much less friction on the bore than lead. Sure center fire barrels wear quicker so folks will think this is due to friction....Which it is in part. The issue with lead is not only the friction against the barrel but the friction against itself as it lays down a thin layer of lead it's peeling more of itself off and bullet experiences a lot of cannibalistic friction....For lack of better word. It's like steel on steel vs rubber on steel. Rubber has more friction but the steel on steel will wear quicker.
So how do you minimize the rotational torque? Stiffer barrels are one solution. Bull barrels are more stiff than non bull barrels and are therefore likely to be more accurate as they are less affected by harmonics.
A harmonic wave in a 22lr barrel is 8.25-8.75 inches long depending on the barrel material and other factors. 2 identical barrels from the same manufacturer may have different harmonic wave lengths which has to do with consistency of the cellular structure of the metal itself. 22lr barrels always vibrate when fired.....Always. this vibration causes the muzzle to move and flip like the tail of a whip. When you fire a 22 without a projectile the muzzle whips in almost a perfect up and down motion as the only outside influences exerting any force on it are gravity and shooter.....which are Holding the rifle down and the tip of the barrel down so the barrel tip moves against the resistence which makes it go up and if course back down again. If you hold the rifle sideways and fire without a bullet the barrel muzzle still flips in an up and down pattern and it's almost a perfect vertical vibration. It doesn't whip sideways as some would suspect.
So what happens to the muzzle whip when you introduce a lead round to the equation? It changes as the lead bullet exerts a lot of force via friction as it's getting forced out of the barrel in a rotational motion. This rotation of the bullet puts a rotational force on the barrel causing the harmonics of the barrel to move from an up and down pattern to more of a rotational pattern. It's like a guitar string. You can get it to move in different ways depending how you pluck it. This rotational wave in the barrel causes the muzzle (ever so slightly) to move in a 360 degree pattern. Not vertical like it does without a projectile We all know 22 bullets travel at different speeds so they exit the muzzle at different times and depending on where the muzzle is pointing when the bullet exits will determine the point of impact. We have all seen the results of this on our targets as we don't get vertical stringing. Our bullets are all over the place with 22's. Unlike centerfires which can produce vertical stringing
Why is this more of an issue in 22's vs centerfires. 22 barrels are typically made of softer steel than cf so the barrel wave amplitudes are larger having more affect on muzzle whip.
Lead is softer than copper so the shape of a lead bullet changes more drastically in a bore than copper ultimately resulting in more friction on the bore therefore more energy transfer to the bore causing more rotational forces (torque) in a 22. Copper exerts much less friction on the bore than lead. Sure center fire barrels wear quicker so folks will think this is due to friction....Which it is in part. The issue with lead is not only the friction against the barrel but the friction against itself as it lays down a thin layer of lead it's peeling more of itself off and bullet experiences a lot of cannibalistic friction....For lack of better word. It's like steel on steel vs rubber on steel. Rubber has more friction but the steel on steel will wear quicker.
So how do you minimize the rotational torque? Stiffer barrels are one solution. Bull barrels are more stiff than non bull barrels and are therefore likely to be more accurate as they are less affected by harmonics.
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The further explanation is appreciated.
Are you saying that .22LR rifles do not exhibit vertical stringing because the muzzle rotates 360 degrees?
Are you saying that .22LR rifles do not exhibit vertical stringing because the muzzle rotates 360 degrees?
Yes I am saying a 22 LR muzzle moves around rather than up and down when fired with a projectile. This movement affects where the bullet lands on the paper. A 22 muzzle does not flip up and down like most people believe. Take a hose and whip it up and down..... The water vertically strings. Take the same hose and whip it around the water moves around. Bullets travelling exactly the same speed leave the muzzle at the same spot in the muzzle movement which allow them to hit the paper in the same spot. Slow the bullet down or speed it up it leaves the muzzle when the muzzle is pointed in a different direction so the bullet hits the paper in a different spot.
There are barrels that are nearly the exact length of three harmonic waves so bullets both fast and slow leave the muzzle at the exact point where there is little to no movement of the muzzle. These are known as zingers and rare as hens teeth because they are very accurate and shot all ammo well
Vertical stringing in 22s is more of an oddity or pure luck than it is a commonality.
There are barrels that are nearly the exact length of three harmonic waves so bullets both fast and slow leave the muzzle at the exact point where there is little to no movement of the muzzle. These are known as zingers and rare as hens teeth because they are very accurate and shot all ammo well
Vertical stringing in 22s is more of an oddity or pure luck than it is a commonality.
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Hmmm.... I must be very odd and have excellent (but bad) luck. Vertical stringing has been an issue in several rifles I've had that do not shoot well. I've frequently seen next to nil horizontal dispersion from them and at times severe vertical.
Theories are fun and all, but practical experience is contradicting your thesis. I do agree that barrel vibrations are incredibly complex involving many forces and directions simultaneously, even expansion and contraction.
I don't think anyone fully understands what the heck is going on in a barrel when the rifle is fired, it's too complex and extremely difficult to measure in a usable way.
Is "zinger" a term that is widely known in the world of rimfire shooting? There doesn't seem to be information available about .22LR rifles known as "zingers". I would be pleased to learn more about it.
Vertical stringing does not seem to be rare in rimfire shooting. There are countless posts about it on forums such as RFC. No one seems to be saying that it's an oddity or the product of pure luck. There also seems to be an absence of information or posts about .22LR barrels and rotational torque. Of course an absence of information does not mean that it does not occur. Rather it's curious that there's a dearth of information about something ostensibly an important factor in .22LR accuracy.
