Most over rated or over hyped pistol?
- Thread starter bernse
- Start date
Actually the SIG P226 scored slightly better than the Berretta but the Berretta also passed and was the low bidder/issues with troop bases in Italy -- and lo and behold who won...
Berretta's website is tripe as far as the M9 goes the Military has not often a clue how many rounds went thru a weapon.
I dont think it is a terrible pistol -- but it is a POS in relationship to all the sunshine that people blow up Berretta's arse.
Berretta's website is tripe as far as the M9 goes the Military has not often a clue how many rounds went thru a weapon.
I dont think it is a terrible pistol -- but it is a POS in relationship to all the sunshine that people blow up Berretta's arse.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
IM_Lugger said:
It don't make no never mind how reliable it is. FMJ 9mm ammo doesn't do a very good job of stopping the bad guys, and the idea is to STOP them from doing what they want to do. If they die that's just a bonus. and in Iraq, the handgun is used quite a lot.
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- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
rick stewart said:
Why would anyone condemm them? THEY DON'T BREAK. I have two, in .45ACP and NEVER had a failure to feed or fire. Since I have a CCW, I don't want to carry anything that doesn't work first time, every time.
- Location
- Alberta land of many guns
IML your own info (off Beretta's site) indicates that frame life is an average of 30K plus. Why is it that I have yet to hear Glock, Sig, S&W, Colt, or Ruger put an estimate on the longevity of their frames? Maybe they just don't want to scare off customers with low numbers. In the end as it has been displayed, Beretta's generally fail or have failures at or near their estimated numbers. Most 1911's Glocks and Sigs, don't have these failures. So regardless whether or not the Beretta is reliable and accurate etc etc. It appears to me that the Beretta is going to need parts and/or replacement long before the others. This hypothesis appears to be backed by both Beretta's information and user results. This being said I wouldn't wabt to invest $1000 or more into my Beretta only to replace it later on. Maybe I'm not seeing things right.....
Not to start a flame war John Sukey but please tell us what a Ruger has over any of the other high reliability pistols out there? I'd say not much, other than their tank like construction. Rugers are large bulky hunks of metal that don't point overly well and don't operate with a glass like feel IMO. The controls(see safety/decocker) are hard to reach and don't always work. Even the military (U.S. or otherwise) doesn't use a Ruger, why is that?
CF
FYI My info came directly from the Beretta Armourers handbook.
Not to start a flame war John Sukey but please tell us what a Ruger has over any of the other high reliability pistols out there? I'd say not much, other than their tank like construction. Rugers are large bulky hunks of metal that don't point overly well and don't operate with a glass like feel IMO. The controls(see safety/decocker) are hard to reach and don't always work. Even the military (U.S. or otherwise) doesn't use a Ruger, why is that?
CF
FYI My info came directly from the Beretta Armourers handbook.
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I beliebe it said over30K, as for other manufacturers not giving out the numbers maybe that's because they're not that high as some people believe it to be....
btw Chicago PD had problems with most of their Glock 22's after 20K mark...
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- Location
- Sudbury, On
John Sukey said:
I hate you... ... Can I move in?
- Location
- Alberta land of many guns
IML you need to read my post again, it says 30K PLUS. As well I did mention the point about other manufacturers NOT indicating their service life because of the possibility of low round counts. I agree with you on the G22, they explode its a known fact, I would never buy a 40 Cal Glock. They rushed to production and have yet to fix the problem. Sig was the last company to market a 40 cal gun and their guns don't explode, I wonder why? Please tell me why Beretta who's first manufactured firearm was in the 1500's now comands such a small share of the LE/Mil market that they are considered to be a "non competitor"? Glock has been making guns for a little under 25 years, and going strong. Sig(founded in 1853, first firearms in 1860) is gaining in popularity and just won a contract for the DHS. Why wouldn't they select a Beretta? They are described as the most reliable and accurate pistol according to Beretta and other sources during the US trials in the early 80's. I think the reasoning is obvious, the gun doesn't fit the needs of the DHS.
CF
CF
IM_Lugger said:
Well based on my experienc ewith the various guns here on the range, the figures quoted are incorrect, in that the frames last quite a long time, the slides might make it as far as indicated, the locking inserts very get close to 20,000rds.
Glock frames last about as long, HK frames a little longer, and SIG frames much longer.
I stopped running Berettas because of all the major parts failures in a fairly expensive pistol.
Having said this, they are good guns, and I have never felt that they were particularly over hyped. Glocks certainly are.
To me this s pretty obvious the two main reason why LEO go for gloks these days are price and low weight of the gun. If you look at the 'major' categoury (Sig, HK, Beretta, Glock) what is the least expensive gun? Exactly! We're not talking about a couple guns here; when you have to buy a few hundred it really adds up. Also lets not forget that cops allready have a bunch of other stuff to lug around not just the sidearm, so the idel gun would weigh as less as possible, again Glocks wins. It's all prety simple. It has nothing to do with which is best/worst gun. As you probably know most LEO go for Glock 22 (which you yourseld wouldn't but).
heck if I had to carry a gun 8 hours a day maybe I'd want a glock too
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IM_Lugger said:
To blow this theory away - the U.S. DHS split their contract between SIG & H&K..not exactly low cost when your looking at up to 65,000 pistols from each manufacturer.
To get back on topic of over-hyped - Glock. Ask any non-shooter what the best pistol is, and they'll tell you Glock, because all the Police use them & they go through airport security undetected
- Location
- Alberta land of many guns
Based on your theory IML the LE community should be driving Toyota Hibrids for patrol cars and using FRS radios from Wal-Mart. The low cost is a cheap cop-out for selecting the Glock. The weight issue is true, they are light weight. Which is why all manufacturers including Beretta now offer polymer guns.
PMT I don't dispute the fact that the contract was divided, what I'm trying to illustrate to others is the fact they never selected the Beretta. They chose as you indicated two "not exactly low cost" choices. Obviously they felt they met the criteria as compared to other choices. Low price is what all businesses use for leverage in a competative market. Why is Wal-Mart so big? Right, low prices low prices....
Going through airport security undetected is not what I consider hype, its crap. Hollywood crap, that started that myth. Hype is unsubstantiated claims of performance, durability etc etc that is circulated amongst the gun community not some 16 year old punk watching movies.
CF
PMT I don't dispute the fact that the contract was divided, what I'm trying to illustrate to others is the fact they never selected the Beretta. They chose as you indicated two "not exactly low cost" choices. Obviously they felt they met the criteria as compared to other choices. Low price is what all businesses use for leverage in a competative market. Why is Wal-Mart so big? Right, low prices low prices....
Going through airport security undetected is not what I consider hype, its crap. Hollywood crap, that started that myth. Hype is unsubstantiated claims of performance, durability etc etc that is circulated amongst the gun community not some 16 year old punk watching movies.
CF
I never said they go for the lowest of the low. Of course they want something that is tested and considered to be reliable. But once that criteria is met most LEs/PD's go for the lowest bidder.
as for DHS, I'm not sure exactly why they chose what they did,(never really looked into that) but I thinks that Sig & HK finally woke up and decided to catch up on the sales after missing the '85 'boat'. I'm sure it had to do more with politic than with anything else...
btw in the .'88 US army trials Sig offered lower price that Beretta on their guns! but Beretta had lower price on parts/accessories.
PTM if price is not an issue than why don't we more cops using Sigs or HKs?
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I'd have to say Glocks are the most over rated in my book.
Also, props goes to IM_Lugger for being able to defend Beretta so well from just about everyone in this thread, I have't seen a whole lot of defence for the others that have been bashed...
Also, props goes to IM_Lugger for being able to defend Beretta so well from just about everyone in this thread, I have't seen a whole lot of defence for the others that have been bashed...
IM_Lugger said:
The technical evaluation of the proposals included a comprehensive handgun test protocol involving a rigorous battery of environmental, reliability, durability, and other tests. Approximately three million rounds of ammunition were fired through 690 handguns of 46 different models during the testing, which took almost four months to complete. Aside from the actual live firing, additional testing was conducted through laboratory analysis and armory inspections. In all, each model was evaluated against more than 50 characteristics before arriving at a technical rating. This data was used in conjunction with past performance and pricing information to select the winning contractors.
IM_Lugger said:PTM if price is not an issue than why don't we more cops using Sigs or HKs?
I don't keep tabs on what firearms are in use by various forces but I do know that the OPP uses SIGS, A lot of Ontario LEO's use Glocks. I don't know of any local forces using Berettas.
alexlacelle said:
Cause the rest of the world does not care who bags on what. IM is a little maniacal in his Berretta defence so its fun to push his buttons. You dont see Slavex in here getting hot and bothered about what some clown says do ya...
I could care less what 99% of CGN users think about firearms - especially ones I like.
ptm is there a site that lists what guns participated in the trial and how they did? It would make for an interesting read.
not sure who uses Berettas but I've seen some LEO around carring them.
not sure who uses Berettas but I've seen some LEO around carring them.
do you think I really care about what you or anyone else thinks about Berettas
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So you're saying that the DHS picked two German companies over an Italian one, despite the fact that Germany opposed the war in Iraq and Italy supported it, for political reasons? As always, you're making a lot of sense...IM_Lugger said:
And for the record, the P2000 was the overall winner of the DHS trials and the contract was initially awarded only to HK. But then SIG complained that the P2000 had no American-made parts in it and the politicians got involved.
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