Norinco M4 CQ5.56 Reliability - You Decide
- Thread starter lmar
- Start date
My Norc M4 arrived on Monday. On friday I installed a set of see-thru rings to raise the scope up and installed a 1.5 - 5X shotgun scope. Th rings cost about $10. Cheap, but effective. I fired a few shots to get a rough zero and then took it to the CQB match at Camp Borden. It shot well and functioned perfectly. Any problems related to my fumbling - not the rifle.
For ammo I made mild handloads using some real cheap pulled 55FMJ bullets. I figured that at 20 yards, the bullet does not make much difference. I used 24gr of a non-cannister 3031 generating 2675 fps. (Factory 55gr ammo developes 3,000fps in this rifle.)
I chose a shotgun scope because shotgun scopes have factory parallex set at 75 yards, whereas rifle scopes are typically 125 yards. This is strictly a short range rifle (CQB). If I ever want to shoot it at longer ranges, I would switch scopes.
After the match, I made a few notes.
First, the shotgun reticle works very well on the figure target. The centre of the bull is the bottom of the white patch on the wrist. The top half of the bull is white. The bottom half is black. The diamond section of the reticle is perfect for centering the bull and shooting quickly.
The scope sits 2.7" above the bore. I cannot see any hint of the front sight assembly in the scope - at any power setting. In CQB we shoot at 30 yards (I think that is the longest) up to 15 yards (I think that is the shortest). The main thing to remember is that if the rifle is zeroed to shoot to point of aim at 20 yards, it will shoot high at 30 yards and low at 15 yards. High and low enough to leak shots out of the bull. At 30 I aimed at the black half (bottom) of the bull (4X on the scope) and at 15 yards I aimed at the white half (top) of the bull (2.5X on the scope).
The Norc has an ambi safety. I found the right safety hit my knuckle, so when I got home I took it off and replaced it with a flat washer.
The trigger had a lot of creep. I polished it a bit before the match, but it was still a poor trigger. I dry fired a Rock River 2 stage at the match. It appears the Norc has the same size pins as the RR, so I am about to order one. That will be the limit of my rifle upgrades.
All I need now is some effective training on reloading faster.
For ammo I made mild handloads using some real cheap pulled 55FMJ bullets. I figured that at 20 yards, the bullet does not make much difference. I used 24gr of a non-cannister 3031 generating 2675 fps. (Factory 55gr ammo developes 3,000fps in this rifle.)
I chose a shotgun scope because shotgun scopes have factory parallex set at 75 yards, whereas rifle scopes are typically 125 yards. This is strictly a short range rifle (CQB). If I ever want to shoot it at longer ranges, I would switch scopes.
After the match, I made a few notes.
First, the shotgun reticle works very well on the figure target. The centre of the bull is the bottom of the white patch on the wrist. The top half of the bull is white. The bottom half is black. The diamond section of the reticle is perfect for centering the bull and shooting quickly.
The scope sits 2.7" above the bore. I cannot see any hint of the front sight assembly in the scope - at any power setting. In CQB we shoot at 30 yards (I think that is the longest) up to 15 yards (I think that is the shortest). The main thing to remember is that if the rifle is zeroed to shoot to point of aim at 20 yards, it will shoot high at 30 yards and low at 15 yards. High and low enough to leak shots out of the bull. At 30 I aimed at the black half (bottom) of the bull (4X on the scope) and at 15 yards I aimed at the white half (top) of the bull (2.5X on the scope).
The Norc has an ambi safety. I found the right safety hit my knuckle, so when I got home I took it off and replaced it with a flat washer.
The trigger had a lot of creep. I polished it a bit before the match, but it was still a poor trigger. I dry fired a Rock River 2 stage at the match. It appears the Norc has the same size pins as the RR, so I am about to order one. That will be the limit of my rifle upgrades.
All I need now is some effective training on reloading faster.
- Location
- Virden, MB
Yea, if someone finds a good trigger that drops in I will be in on that. I was getting under 2" groups with 55g Vmax but my problem was the trigger. I am used to the Shilenon my Remington and a Rifle Basix on my Savage and my tuned trigger on the CZ 452. This trigger is obnoxious. I read that it cleans up with use but I don't know if I wanna wait that. I was shooting some pretty good groups but always messed them up with a bad pull here and there.
I also get my YHM free float barrel tube but can not for the life of me get the front site pins out. I had the barrel in the barrel vice solid and was giving it my all to get those pins out and the would not budge. Has anyone tried this yet with success. I don't feel like milling those pins out.
I also get my YHM free float barrel tube but can not for the life of me get the front site pins out. I had the barrel in the barrel vice solid and was giving it my all to get those pins out and the would not budge. Has anyone tried this yet with success. I don't feel like milling those pins out.
"Sacrilege! The masses demand that your AR share in the MagPul kool-aid! "
Well, actually I do have some Pmags on order. The rifle came with one nice 10 shot pistol mag. I shot the match with borrowed Cmags - they worked perfectly.
But that is it. no more toys. I even used the sling that came with it. Worked well.
Well, actually I do have some Pmags on order. The rifle came with one nice 10 shot pistol mag. I shot the match with borrowed Cmags - they worked perfectly.
But that is it. no more toys. I even used the sling that came with it. Worked well.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I too have been enjoying my recently acquired Norc EXCEPT the trigger.
I can honestly say I have never, and I do mean never had a trigger quite like this one (SKS, MN, WWI and WWII specials included, Tokarev and other HG's) - an official repeatable THREE stage trigger.
What a hoot!
Besides this one negative, the rifle has so far run like a champ and has fed and function without a burp - just over 100rds. I took it apart yesterday to see what type of fouling was building up and can say - nada. One spot of grease was black and there was some soot on the top of the bolt.
Otherwise, very clean. Chamber is getting dirty as indicated by the case but there is no visible fouling. The bore is as bright as I first started - gotta like chrome pipes.
I am about to dress mine up and may even contact Mucdoc for some Armor coat to refinish. Magpul stuff and the typical rail and sights.
Just got to figure out how to remove the cross pins in the front sight. HELP!!!!
When replacing the factory grip with the magpul, I noticed how much longer the norc grip bolt was compared to what came in the magpul bag. After installing and buttoning it all up with the Norc bolt, the trigger wouldn't work.
Checked the safety and it was off - bing!. Backed out the grip bolt and voila, trigger worked again. Then I remembered seeing a part in the Brownells catalog that was a big long bolt designed to help tune the trigger.
Well, luck (cause this was certainly not by design) had given me the same 'part'. A bit of fiddling and I got the trigger to a crisp single stage but it would hang up and not reset sometimes.
Backing off this gave me a mini two stage. A bit of movement in the first stage (target shooters would call this creep) and then a crisp let off. WOO HOO
Shooting has confirmed a much improved trigger pull. I will take it apart cause I got to learn how to put it back together. While it is apart I will likely do some work on the parts to smooth things up and maybe turn into a true single stage trigger.
I have shot another Norc which did have a wonderful single stage trigger so I know it is possible.
This tune up also needs one of the trigger parts to be modified to make the safety work so it is not a plug and play. But with a bit of care, it is simple enough to do.
For the post thinking about an aftermarket trigger, I can offer Timney (drop in unit) and Jewell triggers (got to assemble but lower trigger pull when done) which will definitely improve the pull and lower the weight.
Once I get the front site off, I can get my free float rail on and get serious about accuracy testing.
Fun, fun, fun...
Jerry
I can honestly say I have never, and I do mean never had a trigger quite like this one (SKS, MN, WWI and WWII specials included, Tokarev and other HG's) - an official repeatable THREE stage trigger.
What a hoot!
Besides this one negative, the rifle has so far run like a champ and has fed and function without a burp - just over 100rds. I took it apart yesterday to see what type of fouling was building up and can say - nada. One spot of grease was black and there was some soot on the top of the bolt.
Otherwise, very clean. Chamber is getting dirty as indicated by the case but there is no visible fouling. The bore is as bright as I first started - gotta like chrome pipes.
I am about to dress mine up and may even contact Mucdoc for some Armor coat to refinish. Magpul stuff and the typical rail and sights.
Just got to figure out how to remove the cross pins in the front sight. HELP!!!!
When replacing the factory grip with the magpul, I noticed how much longer the norc grip bolt was compared to what came in the magpul bag. After installing and buttoning it all up with the Norc bolt, the trigger wouldn't work.
Checked the safety and it was off - bing!. Backed out the grip bolt and voila, trigger worked again. Then I remembered seeing a part in the Brownells catalog that was a big long bolt designed to help tune the trigger.
Well, luck (cause this was certainly not by design) had given me the same 'part'. A bit of fiddling and I got the trigger to a crisp single stage but it would hang up and not reset sometimes.
Backing off this gave me a mini two stage. A bit of movement in the first stage (target shooters would call this creep) and then a crisp let off. WOO HOO
Shooting has confirmed a much improved trigger pull. I will take it apart cause I got to learn how to put it back together. While it is apart I will likely do some work on the parts to smooth things up and maybe turn into a true single stage trigger.
I have shot another Norc which did have a wonderful single stage trigger so I know it is possible.
This tune up also needs one of the trigger parts to be modified to make the safety work so it is not a plug and play. But with a bit of care, it is simple enough to do.
For the post thinking about an aftermarket trigger, I can offer Timney (drop in unit) and Jewell triggers (got to assemble but lower trigger pull when done) which will definitely improve the pull and lower the weight.
Once I get the front site off, I can get my free float rail on and get serious about accuracy testing.
Fun, fun, fun...
Jerry
- Location
- Niagara Region, Ontario. For now
So all this review and good news but no groups? WTF? How do they shoot? I need 2 inches at 100 max group size! Someone tell me that's typical and Ill buy one! Please!
I tried mine last week in the pouring rain. At 25 meters the groups were all within about a half inch. At 50 meters they were about 3/4 to 1 ". This is with an all stock rifle, stock sights and first time out with an AR. I was very happy with it. Ran with no problems with a few types of ammo. I didn't shoot farther as it was really pouring and I didn't want to walk out to the farther target stands!!
2" at 100 sounds like it is possible, but since I use it for CBQ (30 to 10 yards - standing) rifle accuracy is not really the issue. But I am curious, because (other than the trigger) since it such a good rifle, I want to see if it is accurate, too.
A stock AR can be quite acurate. I recall having to make ammo for a customer who wanted frangible bullets. Something to do with boarding parties and ammo should not punch through interior ship walls. Also wanted a very low muzzle flash from a 9" barrel.
Part of my testing was done in the evening, with the flash suppressor removed, shooting 45 gr bullets. I happened to be aiming at a patch on a 200 yard target. The muzzle flash was negligable (used Bofors RP28, I think) and the group was a bit under 2" (under a minute!!) This was a stock Colt rifle - not a floated barrel.
I will put a 24X scope on the little M4 and try 55 FMJ, 55 BT, 62gr & 69 MK off sandbags. If it does any better than 2 minutes I would be very pleased, but unless i was to shoot SR, it would not make any real difference for what i use it for.
But it is getting a new trigger, first.
A stock AR can be quite acurate. I recall having to make ammo for a customer who wanted frangible bullets. Something to do with boarding parties and ammo should not punch through interior ship walls. Also wanted a very low muzzle flash from a 9" barrel.
Part of my testing was done in the evening, with the flash suppressor removed, shooting 45 gr bullets. I happened to be aiming at a patch on a 200 yard target. The muzzle flash was negligable (used Bofors RP28, I think) and the group was a bit under 2" (under a minute!!) This was a stock Colt rifle - not a floated barrel.
I will put a 24X scope on the little M4 and try 55 FMJ, 55 BT, 62gr & 69 MK off sandbags. If it does any better than 2 minutes I would be very pleased, but unless i was to shoot SR, it would not make any real difference for what i use it for.
But it is getting a new trigger, first.
- Location
- Niagara Region, Ontario. For now
Well my next purchase (just ordered a tricked out sks) will be either the nork or a remington R15 with the 18 inch barrel! There are plenty of reports of the Remington shooting sub MOA, and if I'm gonna have to replace the trigger on the Nork anyways it may just be worth the extra 400 bucks for the Remington. Epps is sellin them right now for 1093, which seems to be the best buy in an AR I have found other than used! I handled one yesterday and even with the 18 inch barrel it is very manueverable! Maby not for CQB but I do mostly bench shooting!
AR triggers can be worked on. Not absolutely necessary to replace the entire unit.
Maybe there are reports of sub-moa ARs, and AR type rifles do tend to be accurate, and good ones are quite accurate, but I would not expect to see a lot of these rifles consistantly grouping sub-moa.
Maybe there are reports of sub-moa ARs, and AR type rifles do tend to be accurate, and good ones are quite accurate, but I would not expect to see a lot of these rifles consistantly grouping sub-moa.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Put the dot scope on this morning and open sights to do some SR shooting.
Off the elbows, min of golf ball was no problem at 45yds. Clays at 100yds would be in serious trouble. Didn't shoot any further.
Used the ARMSCOR 62gr FMJ w/ WCC 735, CCI 450, Fed cases. function was great. Accuracy was more then needed for CQB stuff.
Both open and dot regulated nicely. Will test some varmint/match bullets in the near future and see if I can coax more performance from this rifle.
Only thing I am finding is the mag catch sometimes doesn't catch and the mag drops. A bit of a jiggle and its good. Maybe a weak spring????
I really like the ability to drop mags without pulling them out of the magwell.
A bit of faster shooting today at close ranges and it hit where the dot pointed so that is good. The creep in the trigger wasn't noticeable for this type of shooting. Pull a bit heavier then I would like but again, no biggie.
Once accuracy testing is done, I will put on the rails and see how free floating affects this rig.
Having lots of fun.
Jerry
Off the elbows, min of golf ball was no problem at 45yds. Clays at 100yds would be in serious trouble. Didn't shoot any further.
Used the ARMSCOR 62gr FMJ w/ WCC 735, CCI 450, Fed cases. function was great. Accuracy was more then needed for CQB stuff.
Both open and dot regulated nicely. Will test some varmint/match bullets in the near future and see if I can coax more performance from this rifle.
Only thing I am finding is the mag catch sometimes doesn't catch and the mag drops. A bit of a jiggle and its good. Maybe a weak spring????
I really like the ability to drop mags without pulling them out of the magwell.
A bit of faster shooting today at close ranges and it hit where the dot pointed so that is good. The creep in the trigger wasn't noticeable for this type of shooting. Pull a bit heavier then I would like but again, no biggie.
Once accuracy testing is done, I will put on the rails and see how free floating affects this rig.
Having lots of fun.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
tiriaq, sub MOA AR's are definitely a possibility with a barrel change.
Shilen and McGowen both make drop in barrels that should shrink groups considerably.
However, I am going to see what is the most I can get out of this factory barrel.
Jerry
Shilen and McGowen both make drop in barrels that should shrink groups considerably.
However, I am going to see what is the most I can get out of this factory barrel.
Jerry
Really enjoy reading your updates while I am waiting for my transfer to go through!
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Odds are good, the Rem will have trigger issues as well. Essentially a rebadged Bushmaster.
If they have a GI trigger group, it will more then likely have creep and a heavy pull. Can it be modified? Of course, just like the Norc. Given the current state of Rem bolt rifle triggers, I would not hold out hope for a NM grade pull.
Check around to see if the Rem/Bushmaster's will drop free mags. A number of US lowers don't.
I went with the Norc with the thought that if I needed to swap/fix parts, at least I would have some 'difference' compared to a US brand.
now that I have run the Norc a bit, I wouldn't bother with a US brand. There is no differnce in function and the Norc actually has some more expensive features like ambi stuff.
Now the difference has gone into bling. Spent less then a US name brand, will have more bling, and all the function/performance.
That works for me.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Out of the box with good bullets and tuned loads, I would be thrilled if I could get 1 to 1.5MOA at 100yds.
with a free float rail, I think I increase the odds of this. It certainly showed some promise with the ARMSCOR with some groups in the 1.5" range but not consistent. Been very happy with these FMJ's they load to the right length and shoot surprisingly well. I am hoping to test some PRVI fmj's in Aug and will post my thoughts.
It would be quite a coup if we could get these norcs to outshoot their more expensive cousins.
Jerry
with a free float rail, I think I increase the odds of this. It certainly showed some promise with the ARMSCOR with some groups in the 1.5" range but not consistent. Been very happy with these FMJ's they load to the right length and shoot surprisingly well. I am hoping to test some PRVI fmj's in Aug and will post my thoughts.
It would be quite a coup if we could get these norcs to outshoot their more expensive cousins.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Very nice. I look forward to seeing what mine can do with match bullets.
Out last night as well - I think I am getting addicted to the SPROING.
150ish rds - CQB style. Banging away, smacking whatever got infront of the dot... chasing brass
Got a case catching bag that straps onto the forend and covers the ejection port. I can say if you ever want an AR, any AR to fail....this is the accessory you need. What a piece of junk. Idea is fine, but real world performance is just shy of horrid.
Zero function failures, mags didn't fall out - seems the firm smack to seat is doing the trick, love those LAR mags - 5rds is just getting warmed up, 10rds is just about right.
Damn, this rifle is LOUD!!!!
I know that this many rds is childs play for a battle rig but I have yet to see any of this fouling or heat issues. 20 to 30rds in a row, the receiver is not even warm.
But I guess that only works out to 1 mag in the 'real' world
.Over 200rds, the bolt is still 'clean', bore bright, no gunk anywhere. Just going to keep shooting until it stops. Not using oil for lube, Synthetic grease is my choice.
Any takers on when this rig will stop functioning due to fouling? I don't intend to clean it until it does. Just lube once in a while. Foolish, dangerous....your thoughts.
Even mounted a FakePoint - was quite fitting to have a clone on a clone. Have shot thousands with my 10/22. Now we will see if I can kill it on a real gun.
Since posting, I have received a number of PM's asking if I would recommend this as a first AR. So far, I can say, I am 100% happy.
After a few thousand rds, I will be able to see if it holds up.
I have a feeling it will...
Jerry
