Outfitters upset with some out-of-province hunters

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Hunter confrontations could escalate, critic says

Matthew Kruchak
The StarPhoenix

Monday, January 28, 2008

There's been a battle brewing in the boreal forest over the past few hunting seasons. But the conflict isn't pitting hunter versus beast -- but rather hunter versus hunter.

Saskatchewan outfitters say they've experienced a growing problem with out-of-province hunters and if the government doesn't set regulations on the firearm-wielding foreigners -- bloodshed is likely.

Government officials and others in the hunting community, however, say the conflict isn't a major problem -- what is sizable are the tourism dollars crossing the border and into the rural economy.

Many Canadian hunters coming from outside of Saskatchewan aren't obeying the law -- and even more important -- aren't following the unwritten rules of the woods, outfitter Barry Samson said.

They don't care if an outfitter hunts in a certain part of the woods and they won't ask land owners for permission to pursue animals on their property, said the owner of Safari River Outdoors in Meadow Lake.

Non-residents of Canada must use a licensed outfitter while hunting white-tailed deer and bear in the province. But when Canadian hunters from other provinces are allowed to take aim at Saskatchewan big game, there are no restrictions forcing them to use a licensed outfitter.

For the most part, these out-of-province hunters aren't respecting local protocol, Samson said, and when guns are involved, he fears the worst.

"We have a group of people coming into the province who don't seem to care too much about anything or anybody -- it's kind of a wild west scenario," he said. "My main concern is, when you see that much emotion out in the forest, if someone doesn't take it seriously I'm afraid that there's going to be more and more incidents where people are going to get hurt."

Sharon Ebery, an outfitter in the Hudson Bay area, has seen blood boil on both sides. It was two hunting seasons ago when her late husband had a run-in with unruly hunters from Quebec, she said.

Ebery and her husband had their bait set in the bush. The group from Quebec set up lawn chairs at the side of a nearby road. When deer crossed the open road to locate the bait the hunters had a clear shot, she said.

"I spend months and months maintaining the baits, hauling feed out there, working with it to set it up for my clients and basically (the out-of-province hunters) cash in on it," she said.

While driving by the roadside hunters, her husband honked his horn at the hunters -- scaring off deer in the area, she said.

The Quebec hunters were upset and claimed her husband tried to run them over, she said.

Dave Harvey, Saskatchewan Environment chief of enforcement and investigations, said he's seen an increase in the number of hunters from British Columbia and Quebec in the past few years.

"We have had quite a few problems with those guys," he said.

His conservation officers have caught hunters hiding dead deer just in case they bag a bigger one and if they do, they'll leave the smaller ones behind to rot.

Hugh Hunt, executive director of fish and wildlife branch of the Ministry of Environment, said he's aware of the misbehaviour and the physical altercations that have occurred and is monitoring the situation.

"We are not hearing these kind of reports from resident sport hunters or others in the forests. We hear them regularly from the Saskatchewan Outfitters Association," he said

It's a territorial dispute, he said, adding that non-native hunters will observe the techniques used by local outfitters and sport hunters and then adopt them.

The out-of-province hunters are becoming quite successful, he said, and are now seen by outfitters as competitors for the fruits of the forest.

"There's competition out there," Harvey said. "That's part of the problem with outfitting. You end up tying up part of Saskatchewan and the outfitter gets a sense of ownership on that land. So if another hunter comes along and is hunting that area then sometimes there's a conflict in the field that our officers encounter where they kind of have to become a mediator between people trying to hunt in the same part of Saskatchewan so there's really no ownership when it comes to that land," he said.

But there are no more altercations between out-of-province hunters and outfitters as there are with Saskatchewan residents and the professional guides, he adds.

To solve these problems, Samson would like to see regulations put in place -- like those placed on American hunters -- that force any nonresident of Saskatchewan to use a licensed outfitter when on the prowl for big game.

Alberta has a similar regulation in place. If a hunter from outside of Alberta wants to hunt big game in the province, they have to book a hunt with a licensed outfitter or be accompanied by a hunter host. The hunter host program allows an Alberta resident to invite up to two out-of-province or non-Canadians to join them on a hunt as long as they don't charge a fee to accompany them.

Alberta doesn't have an open hunting season for out-of-province hunters like Saskatchewan does. The regulations in Alberta have been successful in helping solve the province's nonresident hunting issues, like the ones Saskatchewan is experiencing, said Dave Ealey, spokesperson for the Government of Alberta's department of Sustainable Resource Development.

"It gives hunters the chance to hunt with their buddies from elsewhere," he said. "If it improves the resident hunter's experience -- it's a good thing."

Darrell Crabbe, executive director of the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation, isn't sure if a Saskatchewan hunter host program would work, but said it's worth looking at. What he does know is outfitters aren't addressing the problem.

"I think what they're trying to do is get more people to have to utilize an outfitter."

And there's big money to bag.

According to the Saskatchewan Ministry of Environment, in 2005, hunters spent $107.5 million in the province, or eight per cent of the amount spent by all tourists. Most of the money generated was spent in rural areas which resulted in more than 1,000 full-time jobs.

Out-of-province hunters (including Americans) spend $2,000 to $4,300 per trip (not including airfare), which is 13 to 22 per cent more than other tourists, Tourism Saskatchewan reports.

The money generated in rural communities from hunting is one reason the government isn't creating a regulation to force out-of-province hunters into the hands of outfitters, Hunt said.

According to the Ministry of Environment, of the 70,000 people who hunted in the province, 22,000 came from other provinces or countries and most were Americans.

Brian Hoffart, president of the outfitters association, declined to comment on the issue.
http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstar....html?id=bb7ef850-c3d6-46ae-b5ca-f4850894dc60
 
Illegal outfitting growing problem

Matthew Kruchak
The StarPhoenix

Monday, January 28, 2008

Like the elusive animals they're hunting, rogue outfitters are a tough breed to bag.

As more big game hunters from across the country head to Saskatchewan every fall, the illegal outfitting industry continues to grow, said Dave Harvey, Saskatchewan Environment chief of enforcement.

As out-of-province hunters return every fall, they begin learning where to hunt and form relationships with land owners.

"Then they come back and they start to think, 'well you know, I could probably bring other guys from my home here and I could probably make a few bucks,' " Harvey said.

When it comes to game birds, it's been happening for years, but over the last five, he said he's seen an increase in illegal big game operations.

"A lot of times it's as simple as buying a house in small town Saskatchewan and selling those trips down in the states so it's not traceable," said Darrell Crabbe, Executive Director of the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation.

After finding a place to base the operation, teams of three or four people run the illicit lodge and invite up to 20 to 30 clients to stay for up to a month, Harvey said.

Illegal big game operations set up by Canadians don't take away legitimate outfitters' business, but it does impact the number of animals both are competing for, said Brad Fry, owner of Canadian Outback Outfitters in Candle Lake.

"Saskatchewan white tail deer: It's probably the most sought-after big game animal in North America right now and they're just taking advantage of it," he said.

The situation isn't out of hand, yet, Harvey said.

"We're dealing with it through our law enforcement program but it has the potential to become bigger and bigger every year if we don't rein it in right now."

His conservation officers worked on three significant cases this past fall, he said.

These outlaw outfitters are hard to track down and when they are it's hard to prove they've set up an illegal operation, Harvey said. Sometimes money is exchanged outside of the province and when clients arrive, they've all agreed they're friends and say they haven't paid for the illegal outfitter's services, he said.

"It's relatively secretive enough that it's difficult to really tell," Crabbe said.

"But I bet you it goes on in just about every small town in Saskatchewan -- not every town, but a lot more than we think. I'm sure it does."

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstar....html?id=d58eb82a-1f6b-44d1-8bc4-d3880d599405
 
What a load of BS. Of course the guy wants to have everyone from out of province use an outfitter..HE IS AN OUTFITTER. I personally had more issues with outfitters thinking crown land is "theirs" than any resident or out-of-province hunters.
And crime is crime. If they want to take issue with out-of-province hunters bad behavior ask for stiffer penalties for breaking the law.
Watch Mr. Samson get a sheepish face if when you ask him if he has paid off any landowners to keep people off their property for him.
 
What a load of BS. Of course the guy wants to have everyone from out of province use an outfitter..HE IS AN OUTFITTER. I personally had more issues with outfitters thinking crown land is "theirs" than any resident or out-of-province hunters.

I completely agree with you on outfitters, they can be a real PITA, and their word here is worth little.

I am curious if SASK hunters are having troubles though. We are in AB with the hunter host program, maybe we are immune and naive.
 
In Ontario, most areas that outfitters use is off limits to anyone else, even the locals. CO's watch the roads keenly around these areas.
 
The money that out of province hunters bring to certain small towns every year would be sorely missed. The amount of square miles to each hunter in most areas is no worse than hunting Nordegg or the Brazeau area of Alberta, with the out-of-province hunters attending. The issue for the outfitters is you can only grow so many 160+ class deer in an area, so they need to spread out to find one for every client (they are promising these types of deer, and charging for them). Out of province hunters are shooting some of these deer now, and with the recent winter kill in some areas, the outfitters are starting to feel the heat. Now they have to work harder for their buck(pun intended) and they don't like it. I know of one b!tch guide near Kindersley that only had a 65% success rate, and his biggest deer was 155 all season. Hurts when you are charging high daily fees promising B&C deer and 90%+ success rates, and producing deer the same size as Illinois corn bucks. And I say, 'dems da breaks'.
 
What a load of BS. Of course the guy wants to have everyone from out of province use an outfitter..HE IS AN OUTFITTER. I personally had more issues with outfitters thinking crown land is "theirs" than any resident or out-of-province hunters.
And crime is crime. If they want to take issue with out-of-province hunters bad behavior ask for stiffer penalties for breaking the law.
Watch Mr. Samson get a sheepish face if when you ask him if he has paid off any landowners to keep people off their property for him.

Well said.

Those in bussiness always strive for monopoly. Outfitters are no diffrent.
 
They're losing money because of the decline in U.S. cross border hunting and so they're turning on their own and going after the Canadian dollar to try to subsidise their loss.


Sad state of affairs this country of ours.
 
In Ontario, most areas that outfitters use is off limits to anyone else, even the locals. CO's watch the roads keenly around these areas.

YEP what's up with that??
Some Crown land in N Ont is only open to outfitters & protected by CO's?

So much for Crown Land being available to all Cdns :mad:

Wonder how Outfitters pay for this exclusive right???
never mind I think I know! same as they pay for tags they sell!
 
YEP what's up with that??
Some Crown land in N Ont is only open to outfitters & protected by CO's?

So much for Crown Land being available to all Cdns :mad:

Wonder how Outfitters pay for this exclusive right???
never mind I think I know! same as they pay for tags they sell!


Are you sure?

I know outfitters can pay to keep other outfitters away from their area but I have never heard of being able to keep resident hunters out. I had that very discussion with a fat little outfitter during the bear hunt this year.
 
Actually I am wrong :redface: what they do is put a big sign up at the start of the road that says "No Motor Vehicles Allowed" now I know you could walk in 10 miles or so & carry your moose out but outfitters are allowed to fly customers right to the shore of the lakes!
 
sask hunting

I have hunted in sask all my life. I have never had a problem with an out of province hunter. BUT the outfitters have a terrible reputation. they believe the land they outfit on is theirs. Where my cabin is I know most of the outfitters and am friends with some. That said they are all #######s. They consistantly break the law. A couple have been charged and convicted. One guy had his drivers license taken away while hunting, then charged for hunting illegally in the wrong zone. The outfitters do not bring any money into that area as they put the hunters up themselves. i would not be sorry to see the outfitters go! As for adopting similiar laws as alberta I am all for it.
 
What a load of BS. Of course the guy wants to have everyone from out of province use an outfitter..HE IS AN OUTFITTER. I personally had more issues with outfitters thinking crown land is "theirs" than any resident or out-of-province hunters.
And crime is crime. If they want to take issue with out-of-province hunters bad behavior ask for stiffer penalties for breaking the law.
Watch Mr. Samson get a sheepish face if when you ask him if he has paid off any landowners to keep people off their property for him.

I agree with that. Quebec see it's share of out of province and American hunters and this BS is not running here.:mad:

Those outfitters want to restrict hunters for their own benefit...they are at war with them now..but if they pay them cash then all is alright..they are welcome.. F*%&)K*BS:mad:
 
Quebec does give exclusive zones to hunting collectives ("clubs") ( the Soviet Union had a similar arrnagement IIRC) in line with their general approach to things -but this doesn't exist in Ontario that I know of. Outfitters can pay private landowners for exclusive access - lots of this in Dryden ON where a world record whitetail was taken (illegally) a few years ago - but crown land is open to all. (an exception to this is for timber leases
-if logging operations are underway hunting in that particular area is proibited- but they seem to be reasonable from that prespective.


the ideal would be mirror image legislation - ie you treat out of province hunters the same way their home province treats non-residents - would get rid of some yahoos.
 
They're losing money because of the decline in U.S. cross border hunting and so they're turning on their own and going after the Canadian dollar to try to subsidise their loss.


Sad state of affairs this country of ours.

Not only are they losing hunters to the high Cdn$ but the greedy little outfitters are losing their % as well. The $3500 US deer hunt is now just worth $3500. If I'm out hunting and run into someone else's bear bait or deer stand, I move somewhere else. I've had outfitters come and diesel my baits and stand sites because I am hunting within their territory. I have no sympathy for them,and I used to have my own guiding business. :sniper:
 
In areas I've hunted outfitters have put up hundreds of stands and have so much bait out that a local Sask. boy has little chance in some of these areas. Crown land belongs to everyone and if you don't like other hunters around your so called territory to freakin bad. If it was private land thats one thing but just because you've talked some big spenders up from the states doesn't mean you own the game.

I hope the whole outfitting trade goes down the crapper. Canadian game is for Canadians. If the US want to destroy their hunting lands and turn it all into high priced hunt farms then they can have at it but don't look to Canada as your next place to take over.
 
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I hope the whole outfitting trade goes down the crapper. Canadian game is for Canadians. If the US want to destroy their hunting lands and turn it all into high priced hunt farms then they can have at it but don't look to Canada as your next place to take over.

Then in come the americans paying big coin and feel because they are spending that coin, they then have more of a right to public land then Canadians.

We have a lot of american goose hunters here, they irk me. Walk around like the own the place and they're doing us a favor coming here.

Am I coming across as bitter?
 
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Keep the other countries out of our country when it comes to hunting then!

I am all for it. and woohoo, it's my 1000th post :D

And for the Canucks that don't know how to play nice, take their licenses away!
 
I think we've got a bit of reason to be bitter. We grow up on our home turf and hunt there as kids. Then all the land we hunted on starts to get posted and we don't have access anymore because the outfitters have it all tied up. We treated our neighbours respectfully and hunted ethically and in the end we get shafted by people with money and those looking to screw over everyone else in order to make a dollar.

I hope the Canadian dollar soars and the US cash goes somewhere else.
 
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