Picture of the day

[zupermann]

Not to mention 9 air-to-air kills, 7 of which were against fighter craft. Pulling that off in a dedicated ground attack aircraft took serious skill.

That is amazing--as I'm under the impression that Stukas were sitting ducks for modern fighters of the time.

And to think, no one thought he was pilot material !!

The same apparently was the case with "Pappy" Boyington (who washed out of/didn't make it out of flight school more than once). "Gabby" Gabrowski as well.
It just goes to show, that first impressions are not always correct....

 

[bearhunter]

That is amazing--as I'm under the impression that Stukas were sitting ducks for modern fighters of the time.

And to think, no one thought he was pilot material !!

The same apparently was the case with "Pappy" Boyington (who washed out of/didn't make it out of flight school more than once). "Gabby" Gabrowski as well.
It just goes to show, that first impressions are not always correct....

Without any disrespect to any of the fellows mentioned they all had one big failing. They didn't fit into the parameters set up to maintain a cohesive group. I will never say they weren't extremely gifted/skilled just that they didn't fit in. That can be disastrous, especially with large groups of people that are trained to follow orders and maintain proper procedure. The fellows mentioned are usually completely unable to do this well.

When the crap hits the fan though they shine brighter than any other lights around them and as such are extremely valuable to whomever gets to use their gifts/skills. Every war has them and when the war is over they get a few decorations a bit of glory if they are on the winning side then fade into anonymity or go looking for another war. They just don't fit in anywhere else. Lonely life.

 

[grelmar]

Without any disrespect to any of the fellows mentioned they all had one big failing. They didn't fit into the parameters set up to maintain a cohesive group. I will never say they weren't extremely gifted/skilled just that they didn't fit in. That can be disastrous, especially with large groups of people that are trained to follow orders and maintain proper procedure. The fellows mentioned are usually completely unable to do this well.

When the crap hits the fan though they shine brighter than any other lights around them and as such are extremely valuable to whomever gets to use their gifts/skills. Every war has them and when the war is over they get a few decorations a bit of glory if they are on the winning side then fade into anonymity or go looking for another war. They just don't fit in anywhere else. Lonely life.

Pretty much describes Billy Bishop, as well. On the verge of being kicked out of RMC when war broke out and saved his commission. On the verge of getting turfed from the air corps, when his CO took pity on him and let him have one last sortie, which is when he got his first kill.

Some failed business ventures after the war, financially was saved by well connected and astute friends who told him where to invest his money...

By all accounts, a great friend and a hoot to have around, but not exactly what one would call a "team player."

 

[AP]

Is being a 'team player' really a necessary attribute of a fighter pilot?? Or any pilot for that matter..... I mean if you run into trouble like coming under fire or lose an engine etc etc .... Who really is going to do anything to help-- until you hit the ground!?!?! Seems to me in operations once you are in the air (with possibly a few exceptions such as bomber formations) you are on your own!
A lot different from combat arms I think... My 2 cents

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

The purpose of a wingman is to protect the leader. The leader's purpose is to destroy EA. If the wingman starts pursuing EA to rack up kills and neglects the protection of the leader, they're not doing their job.

The "lone wolves" don't get this. They either are better or luckier than everyone else and survive, or they die alone because they get into stuff they didn't expect, but they're of little use to their buddies. It's very much a team sport.

Some aces totally got it:

 

[Sharps '63]

Same can be said of "Buzz" Beurling (sp?). He was a loner, a misfit discipline-wise. Used to stay at the base working on his aerial gunnery angles instead of hitting the pubs with squadron mates.
He died in 1948 taking off in a Spitfire from Rome while enroute to Israel, IIRC.

Pretty much describes Billy Bishop, as well.
By all accounts, not exactly what one would call a "team player."

 

[bearhunter]

Is being a 'team player' really a necessary attribute of a fighter pilot?? Or any pilot for that matter..... I mean if you run into trouble like coming under fire or lose an engine etc etc .... Who really is going to do anything to help-- until you hit the ground!?!?! Seems to me in operations once you are in the air (with possibly a few exceptions such as bomber formations) you are on your own!
A lot different from combat arms I think... My 2 cents

Not being a team player gets other people killed for no good reason.

The military trains people to work together as much as possible. As often as not lone wolves, no matter how good they are, cause more grief than the enemy. Their natural instincts don't exist in the people around them. The people around them depend on them to react in a pre determined manner which in most cases save lives.

Lone wolves also have a problem with wannabes that want to emulate them but aren't equipped with the same skill sets/gifts necessary to do so. That means another loss of an expensive person as well as their equipment and maybe others.

Lone wolves have their place and their uses. Well trained/equipped teams, for the most part, are more successful at achieving the final goal.

 

[fraserdw]

Well I'll be dipped. I thought a line or two sounded a bit familiar, but I couldn't piece it together in my head. Thanks for that. Hell of a song, and Ol' Gord Downie's a writer, alright.

Steyr built the ADGZ armoured car, a goofy lookin' contraption. The Germans "adopted" quite a few.

Has drivers in the front and the rear. Commander or either driver switch the driving station.

 

[silverfoxdj]

Has drivers in the front and the rear. Commander or either driver switch the driving station.

That was very innovative for it's time..

 

[Donny Fenn1]

Same can be said of "Buzz" Beurling (sp?). He was a loner, a misfit discipline-wise. Used to stay at the base working on his aerial gunnery angles instead of hitting the pubs with squadron mates.
He died in 1948 taking off in a Spitfire from Rome while enroute to Israel, IIRC.

he died in a takeoff accident (sabotage?) while in a Noorduyn Norseman on his way to Israel to join the fledgling Israeli airforce (possibly as the pilot or as a passenger)

 

[stevebc]

Without any disrespect to any of the fellows mentioned they all had one big failing. They didn't fit into the parameters set up to maintain a cohesive group. I will never say they weren't extremely gifted/skilled just that they didn't fit in. That can be disastrous, especially with large groups of people that are trained to follow orders and maintain proper procedure. The fellows mentioned are usually completely unable to do this well.

When the crap hits the fan though they shine brighter than any other lights around them and as such are extremely valuable to whomever gets to use their gifts/skills. Every war has them and when the war is over they get a few decorations a bit of glory if they are on the winning side then fade into anonymity or go looking for another war. They just don't fit in anywhere else. Lonely life.

You just described "Screwball" Beurling.

edited to add: ah, I see Sharps63's post now. "Buzz" is the nickname the RCAF came up with, because what folks really called him (screwball) was considered bad PR.

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Heard audio of Beurling being interviewed for CBC, lovingly describing shooting into the cockpit of an enemy AC and flying by, noting "brains and blood streaming back along the fuselage" and finding the whole experience very satisfying. The studio audience chuckled nervously.

He had odd wiring, that one. Not well socialized. Not a team player. Possessing the ability to calculate lead instinctively in that strange little head of his, and willing to do the job, but not strictly military material. had he not signed up, one wonders what he might have done in civilian life.

 

[Sharps '63]

All of the great Allied and German WWI and WWII air aces were lone wolf killers. That's the nature of the breed.

If they were ground soldiers, they'd be snipers and/or special ops types where their skill sets could best be utilized.

 

[grelmar]

All of the great Allied and German WWI and WWII air aces were lone wolf killers. That's the nature of the breed.

If they were ground soldiers, they'd be snipers and/or special ops types where their skill sets could best be utilized.

But it could be argued that men like Immelmen and Boelke were far more effective, and far more valuable for their nation's air corps, through their dedication to being team players and passing along their skills and knowledge to as many as possible.

Two well trained, skilled pilots, working as a team, will invariably come out ahead in a match against a single lone wolf of preternatural ability. Lesser men working together as teams is what invariably took the great aces from the skies. There were very few ace-on-ace duels.

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

All of the great Allied and German WWI and WWII air aces were lone wolf killers. That's the nature of the breed.

If they were ground soldiers, they'd be snipers and/or special ops types where their skill sets could best be utilized.

I would respectfully disagree.

"Johnnie" Johnson:

34 kills, leading RAF pilot, most kills against the Luftwaffe of any allied pilot in Europe. And a dedicated squadron leader who recommended teamwork above personal glory.


Douglas Bader:

Certified badass, strong proponent of wingmen supporting leaders to destroy EA via teamwork.

Erich Hartmann:

Best there ever was, and likely ever will be. Seldom flew alone. Big proponent of teamwork.

In WW1, when air to air fighting was in its infancy, there was plenty of mano-a-mano-knights-of-the-air foolishness. But by 1939, most successful fighter pilots had figured out that if you're up there feckin' about solo, you're leaving yourself open to unpleasant surprises. Very few of the real hardcores, particularly the guys who lived to the end of the war, flew without friends. Marseille died in the desert, and they pulled Beurling out before his behaviour got him killed. Many of the solo-hot-dog types died alone, doing what they tended to do.

 

[diopter]

 

[Rule 303]

he died in a takeoff accident (sabotage?) while in a Noorduyn Norseman on his way to Israel to join the fledgling Israeli airforce (possibly as the pilot or as a passenger)

Correct. See the book "Hero", Brian Nolan, pp 158,159,160.

Actually he was on a check flight to get certified on type before flying to Israel. He had been recruited by Sydney Shulemson and he (Buzz) would have been considered "Machal".

 

[JP]

My Father was a personal friend of Buzz and to this day he is convinced his plane was sabotaged so he would not reach Israel.

 

[grinder08]

Without any disrespect to any of the fellows mentioned they all had one big failing. They didn't fit into the parameters set up to maintain a cohesive group. I will never say they weren't extremely gifted/skilled just that they didn't fit in. That can be disastrous, especially with large groups of people that are trained to follow orders and maintain proper procedure. The fellows mentioned are usually completely unable to do this well.

When the crap hits the fan though they shine brighter than any other lights around them and as such are extremely valuable to whomever gets to use their gifts/skills. Every war has them and when the war is over they get a few decorations a bit of glory if they are on the winning side then fade into anonymity or go looking for another war. They just don't fit in anywhere else. Lonely life.

Rudel was the exception to this, I believed, while he was a very skilled pilot he was also an excellent leader Buerling on the other hand should have been left a sergeant given a P51 and told to go shoot down Germans. Probably wouldn't have lasted long but he would have gone with a splash.

 

[Curly1]

Flower class corvette?