Rank the AR Manufacturer

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misanthropist said:
Tier 1:

Bravo Company
Noveske
Daniel Defense
H&K
Colt
Knight Armament
Maybe LMT...they are commonly thought of as Tier 1 guns but if you ask, say, Vickers, he will tell you they see more problems with LMTs than anything else on this list (although, no offense koolaid drinkers, Hackathorn had some fairly sharp criticisms of KAC as well)

Tier 2:

Stag Arms
NEA
Armalite?
Rock River Arms
Smith & Wesson
CMMG
Bushmaster?

Tier 3

DPMS
Norinco
Olympic Arms


Guns of which I have no particular in-depth knowledge, but which I can tell you are not tier 1 guns:

Yankee Hill Machine
CORE
Remington
Del-Ton
Ruger
STI
SIG
ATRS



Guns about which I know so little they could be anything from Tier 1 to Tier 50, I have no idea:

Wilson Combat
PWS
LWRCI

Frankly I find it hard to separate Tier 2 and Tier 3...some bushmasters run pretty well and some seem not to run well at all. There are some Tier Z guns that are obviously garbage, but a lot of the 2/3 companies make a range of guns and that is part of the problem...how do you know if you're buying a really good Stag, or one of their mediocre builds? On average Stag seem to be more consistent than most and personally I would tend to equate Stag and LMT, although that is not a popular opinion most places these days. In some ways, the easiest thing might be to say, "here is the short list of Tier 1 guys. Here is the short list of Tier not with someone else's #### guys. Everything in between is a bit of a gamble and occupy a complicated spectrum with a range of capabilities and prices."
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Not attempting to start a pissing match with you but how on earth do you place NEA as a teir 2 and makers like STI,ATRS and YHM below them?

Colt as a Teir 1???? they have fallen from grace a long time ago. They are consistant as for as quallity but not tier1 for sure(low tier1 high end of teir2). That being said the majority of their parts are outstanding products.

I realize that we all have our own brand loyalties but constantly refering back to Vickers disapoints me. He will endorse anything that makes him a few bucks and thats it. Anything else is inferior in his opinion,He was simply in the right place at the right time to gain notoriety. He seems to have been able to keep himself well fed though as is obvious by his nearly 100lbs gained in last 7yrs.... he has some good training aspects but.............

Just curious as to why no love for STI,ATRS,YHM,POF and Wilson combat?

I don't disagree with NEA as teir 2 either
 
Winterkrieg said:
VLTOR is top notch. Noveske uses MUR and VIS on many of their rifles.
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x2 Their products are very well made. It would be nice to check out one of their complete Carbines. I would imagine that it would sit right up their at the top.

HomeTS3-Lg.jpg
 
ah the tired old Tiering argument.

Its a tough call to rate guns - especially from the typical sample size of one that most comsumers get.

If you follow the M4 TDP - then Colt wins.
If you follow Mil/Fed Gov Contracts - its gets a little more open

However then you realize that not a single one of those contract models is available to the public.
And that is the rub.

If you look at the bolt carrier velocity of a 16" barrel carbine gas system gun with the same gas port as a 14.5" barrel with a carbine gas system -- hmm what is different here in the speed.
So even if they just change the barrel length (and drop the auto fire control) the gun is a different animal.

End the end of the day, the consumer had to look at his or her own needs (wants) in a firearm and ideally make an informed opinion based on what they have found/experienced.
 
heckler said:
I realize that we all have our own brand loyalties but constantly refering back to Vickers disapoints me. He will endorse anything that makes him a few bucks and thats it. Anything else is inferior in his opinion,He was simply in the right place at the right time to gain notoriety. He seems to have been able to keep himself well fed though as is obvious by his nearly 100lbs gained in last 7yrs.... he has some good training aspects but.............
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Vickers has some good concepts and developed some solid products but he is a fat mess. If I were a manufacturer I would not want that image attached to my product, no matter how awesome the guy used to be.

Maybe he can still shoot but Jesus! Talk about letting yourself go. When he runs out of ammo he would be an easy kill. You know he ain't going no where in a hurry! ;)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heckler View Post
I realize that we all have our own brand loyalties but constantly refering back to Vickers disapoints me. He will endorse anything that makes him a few bucks and thats it. Anything else is inferior in his opinion,He was simply in the right place at the right time to gain notoriety. He seems to have been able to keep himself well fed though as is obvious by his nearly 100lbs gained in last 7yrs.... he has some good training aspects but.............
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Vickers has some good concepts and developed some solid products but he is a fat mess. If I were a manufacturer I would not want that image attached to my product, no matter how awesome the guy used to be.

Maybe he can still shoot but Jesus! Talk about letting yourself go. When he runs out of ammo he would be an easy kill. You know he ain't going no where in a hurry!
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Obviously you guys haven't seen him lately.
 
Guy honestly this thread is deteriorating rapidly, Larry Vickers is retired....he can eat all he wants and will still do more than 95% on this forum....What does his weight have to do with his ability and expert-ease in regards to making proper AR's, the guy is in the know.

He has been apart more than enough developments projects in his day....

Back to the topic...
 
KevinB said:
ah the tired old Tiering argument.

Its a tough call to rate guns - especially from the typical sample size of one that most comsumers get.

If you follow the M4 TDP - then Colt wins.
If you follow Mil/Fed Gov Contracts - its gets a little more open

However then you realize that not a single one of those contract models is available to the public.
And that is the rub.

If you look at the bolt carrier velocity of a 16" barrel carbine gas system gun with the same gas port as a 14.5" barrel with a carbine gas system -- hmm what is different here in the speed.
So even if they just change the barrel length (and drop the auto fire control) the gun is a different animal.

End the end of the day, the consumer had to look at his or her own needs (wants) in a firearm and ideally make an informed opinion based on what they have found/experienced.
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:cheers:
 
Teir Pinnacle 1

HK
KAC

Tier 1

Noveske
DD
Larue Tactical

Teir 1.1
LMT
Spike ( some stuff appears to be, at least the BCG i bought)

Teir 2 (Good enough for everybody in the civilian world)

Shrubmaster/Bushmaster
Stag
Armalite

Tier 2.5
DPMS

Tier 3
Olympic Arms

Tier 4(70/80's Ar's)

Tier 5 Also known as Barn-spec.:puke:
Norinco( I have seen 7 up close and personal so far)


Laugh2

But in all seriousness I think KevinB hit the nail on the head.
 
Kep in mind LAV has been shot, and in a few chopper crashes. Purple Heart and Bronze Star-V in Panana back before most of us where running around with guns. So unless you've run a mile in his shoes, I suggest we all sit back and STFU on that issue.
 
KevinB said:
Kep in mind LAV has been shot, and in a few chopper crashes. Purple Heart and Bronze Star-V in Panana back before most of us where running around with guns. So unless you've run a mile in his shoes, I suggest we all sit back and STFU on that issue.
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Agreed.

I haven't seen many forums where people that sit in the comfort of their homes every day and take their gun to the range on sunny days will criticize or insult real warriors and hero's.

This site is just ####ing sad.
 
wicked_police said:
Agreed.

I haven't seen many forums where people that sit in the comfort of their homes every day and take their gun to the range on sunny days will criticize or insult real warriors and hero's.

This site is just f**king sad.
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Often times people with large amounts on injuries take steroids and pain medications that can cause weight fluctuations over time. Not saying this is the case, but I am puzzled why anybody cares what an industry guy who is effectively retired weighs.
 
USP said:
Often times people with large amounts on injuries take steroids and pain medications that can cause weight fluctuations over time. Not saying this is the case, but I am puzzled why anybody cares what an industry guy who is effectively retired weighs.
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I think it can be boiled down into one phrase, "most people are dumbasses"
 
wicked_police said:
Because in their mind, they're better because their pants are a couple sizes smaller.

Like I said, sad.
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Ever since I got elephantitis of the left nut, I find I now wear larger pants. Who will throw the first stone now? (stone...not nut please :p)

Laugh2
 
KevinB said:
Kep in mind LAV has been shot, and in a few chopper crashes. Purple Heart and Bronze Star-V in Panana back before most of us where running around with guns. So unless you've run a mile in his shoes, I suggest we all sit back and STFU on that issue.
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I know plenty of people who have been shot and blown up and won medals and citations. That has nothing to do with the image he projects. That's great news if he has turned it around and lost weight.

The reason this was brought up in the first place is because of his credibility and how that factors into our perception of what is a tier 1,2 and 3 manufacturer. That just because Larry Vickers endorses it, does not make it top of the line.

It directly relates to this subject. Now obviously, each company manufactures to different levels of quality but their public image and the consumer perception can play a huge part in what people view as top of the line.

If you read back to my post, I judged the companies based solely on their quality which is ultimately why I use some of these Vickers endorsed products. It certainly isn't because of the man.
 
Okay now how many of them retired after 20 years of Tier1 SOF service?
Admittedly LAV is a friend of mine, but his personal bearing has no relevance on his experience or perspective on weapons.

LAV is a consultant to Daniel Defense and prior was for HK. Now LAV maybe quite the mercenary, but he will not offer himself up for companies he does not beleive in.
DD has also partnered with Hk for US produced Hk416 parts.
 
I agree to back on topic, and I apologize if I offended anyone.
I was just wondering as to misanthropists rateing guidline. He often makes valid points and his opinion is respected. Why, what a lot of people(and I mean alot) would consider top end rates so low on his scale? If there is a logical reason to it....I am interested thats all.
 
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