I have had many gut splitting laughs on your behalf,thanks!! What seems so simple for many is rocket science to others. I wonder if most realize how small the powder charge in rimfire rounds actually is??
Resizing, rim / weight sorting
- Thread starter GPSMapNut
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When I disassembled a bunch of CCI SV rounds to see what the variance in weight was like among the various components I believe I found all the charges were basically the same at 1.0 grains with any difference too small for my cheap scale to detect. The difference in the brass/primer was pretty small. And the majority of the overall weight variance was in the bullets.
Ive experimented just about every way possible with rimfire guns to try and cypher what I can control and cant. After lots of failed experiments and futile efforts I came to realize, its a great gun and a great lot number. Thats it basically. If you can match the two it can be an amazing thing! Others will try all the same shxt thats been tried soooh many times. The results will be the same. Failure. But hey lettem have fun and get excited and some day ,20,30,40 years later realize its what we tried to tell them. Remember the rimfire bullet that was gonna change the rimfire world, I laughed my ass off listening to all the hype. Anybody heard of it,in the last year and a half.
I take it s a yes. Don't skimp. Bring your 100000+ rifle and your custom semi. After all, I'm not challenging your rifle. I'm challenging you. This way you get a chance to humiliate me twice.
I propose a simple match of 5 shots, from each rifle, for a score. 1st place gets a pat on the back. Looser donates $100 to a local charity.
Just don't forget that "Pride cometh before a fall".
As a 70 year old, obviously I'm the fudd.
OP, keep in mind that with .22LR match ammo rim thickness variation or sorting by weight has no significant (measurable to the average shooter) impact on accuracy performance.
If it is hypothetically possible that a particular method of sorting non-match .22LR ammo (such as CCI SV or other non-match SV) actually produces an improvement in that ammo's accuracy performance, it is not going to be a cost-saving boon.
Why? If a box of non-match .22LR ammo is sorted so that half of them shoot much better, where's the big gain over buying match ammo costing twice the non-match?
Instead of having a box good for punching paper, you end up with a box for paper and a bonus box for shooting cans.
To get a box of better stuff you have to still pay for the not-so-good stuff. In other words, you buy more, you pay more.
Buy the good stuff and forget the lesser stuff.
I bought a brick of Lapua Long Range and chronoed 30 rounds with my Labradar.
ES of 20, SD of 5.6
Fantastic numbers for rimfire.
SK LRM was about double that, ES 51, SD 10.9 (edit to add: SK Long Range Match data was with only 20 rounds)
ES of 20, SD of 5.6
Fantastic numbers for rimfire.
SK LRM was about double that, ES 51, SD 10.9 (edit to add: SK Long Range Match data was with only 20 rounds)
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Like you, been there, done that... even became a lapua dealer to get more options for testing in hopes, to find an answer to the riddle. That was expensive.
Then one day, I saw charts on how one of the big ammo makers made, sorted and then graded ammo. Wish I had seen this well before going down all those rabbit holes.... and it sure answered alot of questions.
Simply put... the best ammo the sporting industry can acquire at their highest price... is the first falldown grade the manf didn't want!
And it only gets worst from there.
the US stuff is more diplomatic... its all made to lower standards, no need to try and find the better stuff cause there isn't any.
I know so many still cling onto finding a solution but if/when they realise the ammo we get, regardless of what and how much, is actually quite crappy, SOOOO many things make sense.
but I suspect, years from now, posts like this will continue with shooters claiming, they have a way to make crap better.
In the centerfire world, very few top competitors would use mass produced factory ammo and expect performance to exceed what is possible in handloading. It is used typically for convenience or 'good enough' performance.
in rimfire, this reality seems to have been forgotten with the quest to find the 'holy grail' that can provide that winning advantage. My rimfire competition was limited to PRS cause I saw no point in other accuracy games when you had no idea what would happen on the next shot. At least in PRS, the gongs were big enough that the flyer had a decent chance of still hitting the intended target.
YMMV
Jerry
Guys, it's all great input and I appreciate it. Unfortunately, you may be misinterpreting what I'm after. Maybe because, I never really stated it.
Here it goes:
I'm not trying to make the cheapest ammo to perform on a level with the most expensive one. That is simply unrealistic and you really don't have to prove it to me.
I'm looking for a way to get inexpensive ammo (maybe CCI sv but just maybe) to perform on a par ( hopefully better) with the rejects from the, say, Eley. Let's face it; Does paying 3 times more for Eley Team (bottom of the barrel rejects from Eley) than you pay for run of the mill CCI sv make sense?
I'm not looking for ultimate accuracy.
I have a cheap (to many of you) T1x MTR. I have an old Nikon scope on it. I got a factory grip and beavertail forearm and a cheap Amazon bipod for it. I made and fitted a muzzle break for it only because I didn't like the plastic protector. This is as far as the mods will go on this rifle.
Now, I do realize that feeding it top shelf ammo would result in the best results. I also realize that, more than likely, it's not the ammo that is going to be the limiting factor. It's me.
In other words, think of me as of a guy who wants to squeeze as much accuracy out of a cheap setup as possible.
Ah, Longstuf (sorry if I don't remember exactly your handle), why don't we make our challenge a bit more manly. We do our shootout not from the bench but free standing? After all, I'm not challenging your guns but challenging you...
Sorry - I only realized after that this was a rimfire discussion. I thought it was centerfire we were talking about.
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I was getting Eley Sport for half the cost of CCI SV. Made the 1/2" challenge with it.
Never had CCI SV shoot well for me. Doubt sorting ammo is going to make CCI SV, Eley Club. Im only running a 600$ Anschutz with a 200$ Tasco.
Some people get lucky and have guns shoot decent with lower quality ammo. Like Meroh, his CZ shoots Tac 22 well. My Anschutz doesn't. Fact I had Federal automatch shoot better. But you also got to accept you are only going to get acceptable accuracy.
I've been shooting rimfire for 60 years, playing the precision accuracy game for about 10 years. My present rifle likes Tac 22 (less expensive and more available than CCI SV lately it seems). I have bought a brick here and there of various fancier stuff based on reviews both on CGN and Youtube. What I have found is that accuracy improvements for ammo 2-5 times more costly are not always there, but when improvements are noted, they are not proportionately to the cost. Good equipment does not hurt, but I have shot really well with old cooeys, JW15s, Scorpios, Toz, various CZs etc. etc. etc. Good equipment makes it easier to shoot well. The biggest improvements I have seen over the years have been personal, not equipment, not ammo. (there is some really bad ammo out there). I don't believe that I have yet gotten as good as I can be, but I am better than I was a year ago.
My conclusions are that you can buy good equipment and ammo, but you can not buy small groups; that is still up to the guy behind the trigger.
Be mindful that we always like to be in control, so who knows, maybe not real value in weighing and measuring, or using a cloths-pin, but maybe some intrinsic value in a "placebo" effect where doing these things help us feel responsible, self confident and in control. If doing so works for you, do it!! This rimfire game is as much a head game as anything.
My 2 cents, from an almost 70 year old Fudd. LOL
My conclusions are that you can buy good equipment and ammo, but you can not buy small groups; that is still up to the guy behind the trigger.
Be mindful that we always like to be in control, so who knows, maybe not real value in weighing and measuring, or using a cloths-pin, but maybe some intrinsic value in a "placebo" effect where doing these things help us feel responsible, self confident and in control. If doing so works for you, do it!! This rimfire game is as much a head game as anything.
My 2 cents, from an almost 70 year old Fudd. LOL
OMG !!!! This thread is still alive !! lol
Im impressed with how knowledgeable several of the shooters on this post are, namely the ones that share my opinions.lol
And out of respect for the crusaders still searching for the holy Grail I wish you the best of luck. It’s all good. Cheers !!
Im impressed with how knowledgeable several of the shooters on this post are, namely the ones that share my opinions.lol
And out of respect for the crusaders still searching for the holy Grail I wish you the best of luck. It’s all good. Cheers !!
I can strongly suggest getting a couple of lot numbers of SK long range. This has shot surprisingly well in a number of match chamber Euro rifles.
Next up is SK rifle match. Now you have determined if your barrel prefers "fast or slow" node. Whichever it prefers, just find similar ammo (velocity) and you will find a good choice for your setup that doesn't cost the moon per bang.
Can CCI SV work? Of course, IF you also accept that a higher percentage will diverge from the core group sizing vs better Euro brands
That is really all we can do with rimfire... control the trainwreck.
Jerry
PS proper bedding and rifle supports will have a huge affect on outcome. I would skim bed the action into the stock removing any contact with the barrel. If budget is a concern, better to shoot off a stack of sandbags vs wobbly bipods. Finally, is an optic that you can aim precisely with AND will hold zero... these do not have to cost alot of money nor have mega X numbers. Just choose from the ones many that compete in rimfire PRS have proven to work. I can strongly recommend a modern 10X that costs very little and offers way more performance that you would expect.
