Ruger Scout 308 vs 450 - Deer Rifle

MiG25 said:
Never seen 150gr loads for the 7.62x39, velocities for the SKS according to my notes range from 2395 fps (Remington-UMC) to 2520 fps (Czech BXN 85 and Hungarian 21 79).

I'm sure you and Bartell will claim ~25 grains of bullet weight puts them in different categories.
Click to expand...


So you get 2395-25005FPS from a SKS with 123gr bullets.

That is 200 to 400 FPS slower than a 308 with 125gr bullets from a 16" barrel.
 
MiG25 said:
Which 125 grain factory loads have you tested in a 16" Ruger and what were the velocities?
Click to expand...

My 16” GSR shoots a 125gr Nosler BT at 2900fps with a max load of TAC.
Hand loaded for a CZ527 in 7.62X39 years back.
I also have done extensive load testing with a 300 HAMR which is basically a .308X39 and my top speed with the same 125gr bullet is 2575fps with CFE-BLK, which is also the current rocket fuel for X39.

308win is going to have 3-400fps over the X39 in almost any barrel length…don’t understand why you’re even pushing the comparison?
 
I don't own a 16" 308, or shoot much for factory ammo, but here's a couple 125gr handloads from my 18.7" Ruger m77

125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, Hodgdon 335, Quickload prediction for this load in 16.1" barrel = 2870 fps
Code: 
[TABLE="width: 320"]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Average[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2978.97[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Highest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3066.96[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Lowest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2950.09[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Ext. Spread[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]116.88[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Std. Dev[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41.11[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Shot ID[/TD]
[TD]V0[/TD]
[TD]V25[/TD]
[TD]V50[/TD]
[TD]V75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2952[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2887[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2823[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2760[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3067[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3002[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2935[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2868[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2964[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2902[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2838[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2773[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2964[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2901[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2836[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2771[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2964[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2902[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2838[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2774[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2992[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2928[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2863[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2797[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2950[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2886[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2821[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2758[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

125gr Hornady SST, Dominion D8208BR, Quickload prediction for this load in 16.1" barrel = 2870 fps
Code: 
[TABLE="width: 256"]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Average[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2971.36[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Highest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2975.09[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Lowest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2962.11[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Ext. Spread[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12.97[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Std. Dev[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.31[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Shot ID[/TD]
[TD]V0[/TD]
[TD]V4[/TD]
[TD]V75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2962[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2951[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2972[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2961[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2761[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2973[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2962[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2761[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2974[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2962[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2758[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2975[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2964[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2758[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

That puts a 16.1" 308 about 420 fps faster than a 20" 7.62x39 with the same weight bullet

Here's load development for a friend's 16.1" 308 with 130gr Barnes TSX & H4895 :

308 Win m77 GSR 16.1"
130gr TSX @ 2.724" (.140” off lands)
Nosler brass
F210M primer

H4895

45.3 grs – 2791 fps
45.8grs – 2826 fps, .90MOA
46.2grs – 2863 fps, .46MOA
46.7grs – 2874 fps, .47MOA

settled on 46.4grs
 
MiG25 said:
Which 125 grain factory loads have you tested in a 16" Ruger and what were the velocities?
Click to expand...

I don't shoot factory ammo, but my handloads in my 16" GSR are similar velocity to what Sun and Steel gets. A 16" 308 with a 125gr bullet will always outperform a 123gr from a SKS. I've run tens of thousands of rounds through SKS rifles, I'm very familiar with their performance. Using D4895, Speer 125gr TNT bullets run 2820FPS from my 167" GSR. That's considerably more velocity than a SKS.
 
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You guys are funny, you don't know what velocity a factory 125 grain load would have in a 16" barrel. I say factory load and you guys start quoting ballistic programs.

Do computers say that $100/box of 308 ammo is running ~2450fps?

So factory 308 (and 7.62x51) factory loads will run sub 2500 fps in a 16" barrel, while factory loads will run 2395-2520 in an SKS.

Totally different classes of rifles for deer hunting, ~25 grains of bullet weight'll do that.
 
At the end of the day is a deer going to tell the difference if it was hit by a 150gr 308 coming out of a 16” barrel vs an 18”?
 
Factory ammo? What's that?

I admit it would be a fun time experimenting with factory loads in the 16" and seeing what they shoot but stopped shooting pricy ass store bought ammo a looong time ago. not shooting it in my 7.62x39s either but then again they aren't 6 MOA SKS either lol

There are 154gr loadings offered in 7.62x39 and people handload it with 150s. 2200 fps? tops?

One can have every expectation that 308 Win from a 16" barrel is going to be capable of flat out smoking it.

2700-2800 fps with 150 grain Gameking handloads here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d4bA70Oxhs

Hodgon pistol (15 inch) data has a few 125gr 308 loads breaking 2900 fps. 2500? LOL. Hold my beer. Would love to see that one with a 130gr TTSX.

2576-2583 with a 165gr.

You may run into variance between barrels, you may have to try different loads to get to where you want it to be. No big deal. You have to try a few powder/bullet combos a lot of the time with any rifle. But simple fact, a 16" 308 should beat the brakes off of 7.62x39.

A 168 grain bullet at faster speeds than a 123 grain bullet is kinda hard to compare lol. At least at those speeds and those calibers.
 
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Tell me again how many rifles it shot that fast in? Sample size was statistically significant, I'm sure?

And then there's spending $100 on a box of 308 ammo. PT Barnum had something to say about that.

Can't say I'd be doing that but to each their own...

You've established that one particular load (out of how many options? 100? More?) was a bad choice in one particular gun. Congrats. If the only option available is being hosed on $100 boxes of Nuzzler ammo then that would be different.

Alas, it aint so lol.
 
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Well, Remington doesn't break 2500fps either. And Hirtenberger barely breaks 2500 fps in a 17.7" barrel.
 
My plan would be to shoot the cheaper federal power shok 150 grain.
This rifle would be a 100 yards and in gun with the potential maybe and I would emphasize heavily on the maybe a 150-200 yard poke in select areas of the bush.
 
Last edited:
MiG25 said:
Well, Remington doesn't break 2500fps either. And Hirtenberger barely breaks 2500 fps in a 17.7" barrel.
Click to expand...

Got ya.

Sounds like it'll happen that there's a couple rounds that won't. In some guns. Which doesn't mean that others will be as slow, and that heavier bullets won't be going even faster, and still besting 7.62x39mm

-Doug-,

Any of those sound awesome. I'm partial to easily scoped bolt actions, but that's just me. Sounds like a buncha cool rifles that'll fill freezers. Would not worry about the terminal effect of anything here and more about just which rifle you like better. Any/all of em will do it.
 
You know I got to thinking...we're talking about at the muzzle. Unless we're killing deer at ranges where we want to fake a suicide, does that really matter? What about 100 yards out?Just for fun, I went to the Hornady calculator and ran a few things.

A .275 BC 123gr .310 bullet at 2450 fps.

100 yards

2149 feet per second
1261 ft/lbs

A .400 BC 150gr 308 Win projectile starting at 2550 FPS

100 yards

2346 fps
1831 ft/lbs

I'd say that's significant lol. The 7.62x39 is lagging behind considerably, having only 66% (OK, 67%) of the energy of the 308 150gr.


But let's say you decide to go with a 168 grain bullet with BC of .490, and the fastest you can get it going is 2450 fps. I think that's very conservative.

100 yards

2278 fps (well within the expansion limit of lots of softpoints, especially an accubond or ballistic tip I took the BC from)
1936 fps

Ouch. Yeah that is quite significant.



Will animals notice differences here? I'mma go out on a limb and say yes, without being too worried about that limb breaking at all lol. Take it out to 150 yards and you still have a very commanding lead. Heavier bullets with better BCs starting faster only get better and better than their largely irrelevant muzzle velocities suggest, compared to short, stubby, low BC, lighter counterparts.

(BTW even if someone decides to flush a hundy on a box of Nosler 150gr Ballistic Tips even tho Fed loads it for half the price, and your particular barrel is unlucky enough to fling em at 2480 FPS, you're still talking over 1700 ft/lbs at 100 yards, over 1400 at 200. Again, I think its significant. If over a quarter less energy and a lighter bullet (comparable construction) means nothing to you, no big.)
 
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a 7.62x39 123gr SST factory load (2350 fps MV 20" test barrel) retains 1000 ft-lbs of energy to 170 yards. A 30 cal 150gr Accubond @ 2446 fps MV (16.1" barrel) retains 1000 ft-lbs to 370 yards

There is no way a long barrel 7.62x39 can compare in real world performance, to the slowest 16" 308
 
Joel said:
But let's say you decide to go with a 168 grain bullet with BC of .490, and the fastest you can get it going is 2450 fps. I think that's very conservative.

100 yards

2278 fps (well within the expansion limit of lots of softpoints, especially an accubond or ballistic tip I took the BC from)
1936 fps

Ouch. Yeah that is quite significant.
Click to expand...

here's a few shots of 168gr Hornady ammo from the same 16.1" Ruger Scout 308 that did 2446 fps with 150gr Nosler factory ammo

Code: 
  [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - [B]Average[/B]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 64, align: right"][B]2541.31[/B]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][B]fps[/B]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 128, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[TD="width: 64"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Highest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2549.26[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Lowest[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2527.38[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Ext. Spread[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.87[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stats - Std. Dev[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12.1[/TD]
[TD]fps[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Shot ID[/TD]
[TD]V0[/TD]
[TD]V50[/TD]
[TD]V100[/TD]
[TD]V150[/TD]
[TD]V200[/TD]
[TD]V250[/TD]
[TD]Ke0[/TD]
[TD]Ke50[/TD]
[TD]Ke100[/TD]
[TD]Ke150[/TD]
[TD]Ke200[/TD]
[TD]Ke250[/TD]
[TD]PF50[/TD]
[TD]Proj. Weight[/TD]
[TD]Date[/TD]
[TD]Time[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2549[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2467[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2423[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2270[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]414.46[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]168[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, align: right"]5/5/2017[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]14:08:07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2527[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2443[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2382[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2225[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]410.42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]168[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, align: right"]5/5/2017[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]14:08:33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2547[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2460[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2376[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2420[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2256[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]413.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]168[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63, align: right"]5/5/2017[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]14:08:49[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Nearly double the energy you can expect from 7.62x39 at 100 yards, with a much better bullet. They must also even up around...almost 500 yards?

I'd say that's real world 308 Win from a 16" barrel crushing 7.62x39 yeah.
 
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