Service Rifle NOOB wannabe questions

Gents:

As someone who may soon take posession of a Long Branch #4 Mk 1 with a big ol' turnip of a Parker Hale rear peepsight, the whole idea of Service Rifle competition has become of interest to me. I appreciate the rundown of basics you offer here, and look forward to reading more.

A quick question or two:

1) A lot of guys seem to lean toward the AR's for the obvious reason. Is there still fun to be had with a .303, or am I just fooling myself? Keep in mind I'm not out to win a damn thing aside from satisfaction with myself and any newfound abilities I might pick up.

2) The LB comes with a 1917 dated sling with a big ol' felt cuff in the right spot. I have a shooting jacket, muffs, glasses, plenty of ammo... What else is considered necessary?

3) Is there anyone doing this near Edmonton, or must I travel to Godless Calgary ;)?

More questions to come once I get things together. Once the rifle is mine, I'll want to show you some pix - she has a history in this sport (comes with a P-H scorebook with entries listing the Sarcee range in '52 and a few other neat bits of ephemera) and I'd like to return her to the range in honour of the man who had her before me.

Cheers,

Dan
 
You can shoot a .303 in the service rifle matches, but the main disadvantages are the lack of optical sights and the fact that you have to shoot from your elbows while the other guys are resting the mags on the ground.

If you plan on shooting the DCRA nationals (NSCC), they account for the fact that the Canadian Rangers are issued .303's so there is also a separate trophy set aside for the best bolt action shooter. It has not been awarded for a couple of years simply because nobody has competed for it. If you show up with your No4, you just may be a champion by default! :D :D

As far as your range equipment goes, the shooting jacket would have been used with your rifle back in the days when what is now known as "Target Rifle" was simply another division within "service rifle". I think it was "Service rifle A" or "B" or something like that before the TR folks went off on their own highly specialized path and stopped using military rifles. For todays service rifle matches, I feel that a shooting jacket is mostly a liability unless you feel comfortable jogging 500m with it in the blazing July/August sun.

What you will need to add to your equipment list is something to see the spotting disks in your target. 8x Binoculars will do, but a spotting scope is better. You don't need anything elaborate or expensive for service rifle, after all, you are not looking for the actual holes in the target, you just need to see and count the 3" dia. bright orange disks placed in the bullet holes by the butt marker. A vintage spotting scope would be a neat addition to the set. There are lots of different types out there that would be appropriate and they are still not very expensive. I used to use an old model with a microscope type arrangement of different magnification eyepieces on a rotating disk. I got razzed a lot and funny looks from people sometimes, but it worked as well or better than the modern scopes on the range.


Dark Alley Dan said:
Gents:

As someone who may soon take posession of a Long Branch #4 Mk 1 with a big ol' turnip of a Parker Hale rear peepsight, the whole idea of Service Rifle competition has become of interest to me. I appreciate the rundown of basics you offer here, and look forward to reading more.

A quick question or two:

1) A lot of guys seem to lean toward the AR's for the obvious reason. Is there still fun to be had with a .303, or am I just fooling myself? Keep in mind I'm not out to win a damn thing aside from satisfaction with myself and any newfound abilities I might pick up.

2) The LB comes with a 1917 dated sling with a big ol' felt cuff in the right spot. I have a shooting jacket, muffs, glasses, plenty of ammo... What else is considered necessary?

3) Is there anyone doing this near Edmonton, or must I travel to Godless Calgary ;)?

More questions to come once I get things together. Once the rifle is mine, I'll want to show you some pix - she has a history in this sport (comes with a P-H scorebook with entries listing the Sarcee range in '52 and a few other neat bits of ephemera) and I'd like to return her to the range in honour of the man who had her before me.

Cheers,

Dan
Click to expand...
 
... Along the line of "Dark Alley Dan's" enquiry....would a US National Match ,1907 sling,be permitted, if shooting an SMLE No.3 ? ('has to be a No.3, as that's what I've got a Parker Hale sight for!) The No.4 sniper rifles had them, but as to No.3s, well , damned if I know. Next question, with f..... arthritis in both knees, I'm "mobility challenged" as far as running, would a really quick walk be allowed for the rundowns ? And yes, I know I'd NEVER be in the winners circle, but it's fun to shoot the vintage stuff anyway ! ... Curious, mostly for next year ..... David K.
 
i am also looking at getting into this with my sported #4 what are the things i am not aloud to have on my #4 for competing? keep in mind i am not interested in actualy winning anything i just think it might be fun to go out there
 
This thread has really been helpful. I was also looking at starting to work towards this goal of participating in Service Matches, but as a Civvie I've always wondered what else I could do to besides practice at the local range.

Would anyone know who a guy in BC would need to contact to get started? Like IPSC are there range courses? rulebooks etc? Are optics such as ELCANs or ACOGs allowable in all conditions or are iron sights required?

Thanks in advance. PM me if you can provide any details.
 
Shazam:

Here in Ontario we have NO restrictions on the rifles OR sights. You can use any rifle you want (turnbolt, semi-auto) mounted with any sights.

We have learned from shooting at the Provincial and National Level that the spacegunners don't have any advantage. Box stock C7A1's with their Elcan scopes win over and over again. Yes, they kick my Leupold and ACOG ass.

IT's not about the hardware and ammo... it's all about fitness and intense training.

Hope to see you out at the matches learning about your equipment.

Barney
 
More Newb Questions....

I'm in the process of joining the OSA. I think as I read this thread I realize Service Rifle ain't the same as Tac Carbine....oh, oh.....

Here's where I'm at right now....

I have a (presently) bone stock Norc m14 and a brand new never fired Bushmaster 16" flat top. I have 2200 rds of South African 7.62 for the Norc, and I reload .223 for my Tikka Tactical, so .223 won't be a problem for the carbine. So far for optics I have an EO, and a Leup 8.5 - 25 x 50 MkIV LRT (off my Tikka). (I won't count my Bushnell 3200 ;) ) I've been shooting for a year, mostly bench or bipod, hardly any position, and have 1500 rds from various rifles and pistols under my belt, incl. about 250 rds of .270WSM.

I have some more newb wannabe questions:

1) How different is the course of fire for Service Rifle compared to Tactical Carbine? Is is mostly a distance issue?


Hungry here: Service Rifle's course of fire can be best summarized as : Deliberate (slow fire, each shot indicated, Snap (10 exposures of 3 sec each), Rapid (ONE 30 sec exposure with a mandatory magazine change), and a Rundown(with either 10 snap exposures or 5 x 10 sec exposures).

This pattern of 4 types of target exposures happens at 200m, 300m and 500m. Therefore 12 matches. That's the simplest summarization. Like tying your shoelaces, it's easier to walk through the matches than it is to explain it.

Tactical Carbine begins at 100 m. with a zeroing stage. Then we will shoot snap & rapid fire matches from varying positions (you mentioned that you had better practice yer positions... you are RIGHT). Ranges can be from 75m right down to 10m. Stages all involve magazine reloading. We also have 'advance' stages instead of rundowns. These advancing matches occur at distances of 30m down to 10m. All depends on the terrain or range that we run the matches on. For example: Last Sep 23-24 2006 OSA Championship match where we awarded over $ 1400 in cash prizes to many Reg & Res Forces soldier, we ran the Advance stage from 75m down to 50m. I'm scratching my memory stacks for the exact distances, but my fuzzy memory is alluding (sp?) me.

2) What kind of gear would make competition easier, or make preparing for competition easier? (vests, mag pouches, mats, all that kind of stuff....) What kind of prep is required, other than physical conditioning? (Since you guys have been doing this for a while, where do you see the major mistakes being made in areas other than marksmanship?)

Webbing works, Tac Vests work, I've seen a member compete in a Plate Carrier. He installed the plates. Damn he's strong, tough, and I bet he has a nice 'six pack'. LOL Mats? Hey I'm already ugly looking enough for the 2 Brigade soldiers to laugh at me. I'm not bringing a matt to add insult to injury. When I shoot the Operational Sniper matches, my sniper drag bag opens out into a shooting mat. That kills 2 birds with one stone. Prep work ? Physical conditioning, dry firing in position practice which you can do at home, ammo reloading (lots of it), wind reading which you should come out to our matches and practice. Fine tuning and cleaning of your M14 and Bushy 16" carbine, again more position practice with both rifles, Attending the OSA Pistol, rifle, carbine clinics so that KeithC and LindaM will show you how to productively practice at home in your basement (don't dry fire in front of the open living room window yuk yuk yuk).

Mistakes? I've made them all.

* rushing your shots in rapid fire
* forgetting to align natural point of aim
* fumbling on the magazine reload. Dropping the fresh mag while reloading
* forgetting to focus on the 'sight picture, sight picture' mantra and forgetting to squeeze :eek
* rushing the shots again in rapid fire
* swearing while doing the mag change after grabbing the wrong mag from the wrong pouch
* more swearing while inserting the magazine upside down from the wrong pouch
* not placing the fresh magazine in the most forward mag pouch
* not ensuring all your fresh rounds are fully to the rear of the magazine
* failing to catch the wind change in the middle of a rapid fire string
* watching TimK pound down his PowerGel before the rundown and laughing, therefore breaking focus
* seeing TimK swallow a fly while hyperventilating in the 'prone ready to run' position
* giggling while TimK laces up his football cleats (swapped combat boots) and forgetting to run quickly on the command 'targets up'.
* crossfiring after laughing at other soldiers step into groundhog holes on Connaught Range rundown
* doing the 400m rundown with a 1.5 liter H20 bottle since the butts don't have water ( I shot a 43-3V actually)

In short: There are a gazillion mistakes one can make and continue to make. That's what makes these Matches 1-12 the most challenging course of fire in Canada. I hope I can enlighten you with this short list of errors that I've made.

3) My optics needs......uh........? :confused:

I've won all my DCRA (NSCC) gold medals with a Leupold Tactical 3.5 x 10 x 40mm with target turrets. That being said, I've moved on to a 4X ACOG TA31F Chevron reticle to shoot Service rifle and Tac Carbine CQB matches. I'm too old to carry that heavier Leupold with Mark4 extra high rings. Many years ago before 1995, I shot all the Service Rifle matches with iron sighted M1's, M14's, M1A's.

4) How accurate is a properly prepped Norc M14 vs a box stock M15/16/M4 (16")?

More accurate that you and I can hold them. Shoot the matches with them right outta the box. Focus your energy on fitness and position practice and NOT on the firearm solely. Seen many shooters crash and burn because they replaced skill with hardware. Always a mistake in this game. My experience comes from seeing (never to return) shamed newbies with more money in their bangstick than experience under their belt... at the provincial and national level. You have the right tools to come out and have some fun, hey win some medals , too...

5) It would appear to me (being a newb) that the M14 has some potential at the longer ranges, deliberate, and the carbine would show itself in the shorter range/quicker sections. Does that sound right? ...or why not?

I'm going to focus on what I have seen. 16" carbines royally kick ass at 500m. In our game the bull is a 2 MOA diameter, very generous to accomodate Service Rifle (read: rack grade rifles) accuracy potential. If your rifles will shoot into 2 MOA, then your rifle is competitive. Remember that we are punching holes in paper on a ONE way range. I'm too old at 48, to deploy to Asskrakistan, especially with my 2 hip replacements and Diabetes. Now distances are irrelevant. Which brings us to the next point down below.....

6) My lack of position shooting experience is gonna kick my a&* isn't it?!!

Many civvie Service Rifle shooters (it's a pattern I've noticed as the former match director and now the 2 I/C match director) show up with the expectation that money can buy medals by purchashing some ABCDORL (Armalite, Bushy, Colt, DPMS,Olympic, RRA, LMT)stainless match barreled black rifle with US Optics, IOR Valdada, Schmidt & Bender, ACOG, ELCAN , Leupold, Elite 3200, or whatever high zoot optic). The Service Rifle matches 1-12 are a great leveller.

Many of these ORA (from my past experience) successful Precision shooters apply what they have learned (all about the "Arms Race") of F Class shooting (read: belly benchrest) to building up their 1/4 MOA shooting black rifle. Without focusing on their personal fitness (flame suit ON) all the while expecting to kick my box stock Bushmaster or Armalite rifle.

"What? You did not add in a Jewell 2 stage National Match trigger ? Yer #### is gonna fall off!" :eek

"How are you gonna live through the shame of shooting a factory 20" barrel ?"

"WTF are you shooting a factory barrel for ? You have gold medals? Yer #### will fall off!"

"My Mike Rock 5R stainless, Cryo treated is free-floated with a GGGG&G 5 rail tube and weapon light will shoot into 0.235" all day long. Yer #### is gonna fall off!"

"Barney, you are a fool only shooting a 4X ACOG! My NM Stainless Krieger barrel'ed Springfield Armory with DOUBLE lugged reciever and Leupold LR/T Mark 4 and Smith Navy Seals Issued mount is gonna OWN your 16" carbine ASS!"

Well Keebler... just ask TimK and KeithC... all those people show up ONE match and NEVER return. They get humbled.. not by my scores, but by the intensity of Matches 1-12. When all is said and done, I'm still there with my box stock 16" carbine.

Get ready for next summer... I'm working on competing Tac Carbine with a Marlin 1894C topped with a Jackyiscxyd bought Aimpoint knockoff for $ 60. Yuk yuk yuk.

In short, practice your positions and magazine changes while in position with kit that works for your body style and budget. Thanks for this walk down memory lane...

Better yet, join the OSA and attend all of our clinics. One of our mantras is "First you get good, then you get fast." I learn more each day hanging around KeithC and LindaM. I'm not worth, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy....

Barney

:D

Oh, boy.
 
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Keebler750 said:
1) How different is the course of fire for Service Rifle compared to Tactical Carbine? Is is mostly a distance issue?
Click to expand...

Mostly a distance issue, but also the format of the matches. Service condition matches are generally quite standard, 200m, 300m and 500m matches, with a Deliberate (slowfire) Snap (3 sec exposures) Rapid (single 30 second exposure) and a fire-and-movement (Rundown) match at each distance.

There is some minor variation in positions, but basically that's what you'll shoot in service conditions. For the exact match conditions, visit the DCRA website, or have a look on my website for the "Shooting Book" link.

2) What kind of gear would make competition easier, or make preparing for competition easier? (vests, mag pouches, mats, all that kind of stuff....) What kind of prep is required, other than physical conditioning? (Since you guys have been doing this for a while, where do you see the major mistakes being made in areas other than marksmanship?)
Click to expand...

Ok, I usually shoot SR wearing military gear, 'cause I'm in the Military. For a civilian, there's not a lot you do need. Mats get in your way, a vest of some sort (I have a blackhawk one I wore last summer and it worked well) a good pair of boots for the rundowns, and long pants, since they're comfier in positions and provide some support. A decent spotting scope (I have a 20X Bushnell that I picked up for under $200 that does the job)

Important to note. ALL OF YOUR GEAR NEEDS TO BE EASILY CARRIED. Ie, don't have a big pile of *STUFF* that you have to haul back and forth from firing point to firing point taking multiple trips. If you can't carry it in a single trip, you don't need it. A Small rucksack will generally be adequate to carry what you need.

Positional practice will help you a lot, so will practicing your reloads. Getting your mag-change down from 6 seconds to 3 seconds will help considerably when that 3 seconds is 10% of your shooting time in a match! (Placement of the mag used to reload is also significant...put it where it's EASY to reach with a simple motion of your arm....practice.)

3) My optics needs......uh........? :confused:
Click to expand...

Well, your choices are wide open. ORA lets their shooters compete with pretty much whatever they want on top of their rifles. An optic of less than 10X is recommended, and a variable optic may be worthwhile having, so your field of view isn't limited during short-range snap shoots.

Don't skimp on the glass, buy the best you can afford. It's worth it in the long run.

4) How accurate is a properly prepped Norc M14 vs a box stock M15/16/M4 (16")?
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Well, a stock AR-15 type rifle is usually able to shoot 1.5 MOA or better, depending on the ammo. A match prepped M-14 will shoot 1-1.5 MOA. Up to you.

5) It would appear to me (being a newb) that the M14 has some potential at the longer ranges, deliberate, and the carbine would show itself in the shorter range/quicker sections. Does that sound right? ...or why not?
Click to expand...

M-14's have a lot of potential, but I note that the US Military is stepping towards M-16 platforms for their long-range service rifle shooting...As the ranges get longer, the shorter barrel of the M-14 compared to a long-barreled bolt-action precision rifle makes the long-gun more worthwhile.

Experiment with both, and see how they perform, use what's best for you.

6) My lack of position shooting experience is gonna kick my a&* isn't it?!!
Click to expand...

Ayup.

Get working on your standing, sitting, and kneeling positions. They're hardest.

Got two kids to deal with here just now, gotta run, more later.

NS
 
What are the different types of guns used?

This looks like a fun match to try. What type of guns can I use? Is it limited to just Canadian service rifles or could I use a PE90 or another gun?
 
CanadianAce said:
This looks like a fun match to try. What type of guns can I use? Is it limited to just Canadian service rifles or could I use a PE90 or another gun?
Click to expand...

A PE-90 is fine.

Actually it is called the Service Conditions match these days (at least in B.C.)

Basically any service type rifle can be used (except those that are Prohibs like the FN/HK91, etc) such as the .303 Lee Enfield, M1 Garand, M14, AR-15,PE-90, Robarms M96,etc.

I will be using my PE-90 in this yeasr matches.

SKBY.
 
Skullboy is right. Nowadays we call these matches Service Conditions since the matches are : deliberate, snap, rapid and rundown. These are the conditions under which a shooter (regardless of style of bangstick) will compete UNDER!

In 20 years of shooting these matches (actually I started in 1977 at Battle School), I have competed with FN C1A1, M1A, M14, M1 Garands, M70 .22-250 sporter, M700 Police (no joking), M70 .223 coyote, M70 Hvy Varmint (1994, I was a lot younger), and of course AR15's with varying barrel lengths (no, not adjustable length barrels) LOL

Come on out and play with all your hardware...
 
BTW, a comment that I made the other night at our little CGN gathering here in Halifax kinda rang through my head tonight.

Recoil management.

Shooting a 7.62mm battle rifle will work fine for you, but only if you manage the recoil well.

If you're not able to manage the recoil, then stick with a 5.56 rifle.

With a snap shoot, you have a few seconds between exposures to reset the position of the rifle in your shoulder, and can make-up for some slippage due to recoil. In a rapid, the rifle will walk it's way off your shoulder if you're not careful, not to mention taking a fraction of a second longer for each shot to get back on target due to the increased recoil.

If you're able to control the recoil, bully for you. If it turns out to be an issue, then consider 5.56.

NS
 
I've got another noob question. If I just want to shoot the 'regular' service conditions matches at Vokes, etc -is an associate membership good enough? I don't see myself flying around for national competitions on my first year, at least not farther than say, Alberta.
If I change my mind later on in the same year in question, can I upgrade my membership?
 
I've seen it done with an SKS and a Mini14 so why not a VZ... if it goes bang and you have sights or optics that go back to 500m go for it.
 
service shoot

Would a sl8 with factory 55 gr and a 5-15 bushnell tactical be worth bringing for a first timer?
 
Does anybody do seminars for total n00bs like me, covering everything from Shooting Positions 201 to Shooting Competition 101? This Service Rifle thing sounds like a lot of fun, but I'm thinking a little bit of coaching on the first part of the learning curve might be a worthwhile investment.
 
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