Shooting Double Action
- Thread starter Ganderite
- Start date
I did back in the 80's. Had a 44 Special thing going on, so used a S&W revolver. Their DA, while different than Colt or Ruger is easy to use. - dan
ipsc does have a specific revolver division (ie, sure your reloads are slower, but you are not competing against guys with semis so everyone slower). check out appendix d5:
https://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf
the gamers will run 8-round revolvers in 9mm. but if you are not out to win there's lots of guys that'll walk the stage with hand cannons knocking everything over.
typically not a lot of guys shooting revolver so you can show up at just about any match and be top of your division.
https://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf
the gamers will run 8-round revolvers in 9mm. but if you are not out to win there's lots of guys that'll walk the stage with hand cannons knocking everything over.
typically not a lot of guys shooting revolver so you can show up at just about any match and be top of your division.
Haha. I love this.
PPC = Police Pistol Combat. Light stock revolvers and "Double action" most of the time. Humongous powder charges and heavy bullets - at optical speed. Daunting !
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For Revolvers it’s DA only. All guns loaded with 6rds only.
As to quote above there is lots of time per stage to take some time to aim (wipe your eye pick your nose) it’s not that fast.
My loads are conservative 38sp =168gr DEWC 3.2gr W231 small pistol primers. Just killing paper.
It’s fun when 8 shooters let go at once! Just don’t count my scores (cry)
Probably will need a few box’s factory to make power at a IPSC match.
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From what I've seen of PPC it's mostly wadcutters and extremely mild powder charges in revolvers. Some folk bring semiautos, but the six-shot strings in this discipline tell you it was born a revolver game. Power factor was "it has to penetrate the cardboard the target's stapled to". Can go right to minimums for no recoil, but maximizing accuracy makes the most sense because the X ring in the farthest target is really tiny.
Well, I will rephrase my post and, this time, I will try to stay serious.
PPC = Police Pistol Combat. Medium frame revolvers with heavy barrels using extremely mild powder charges, like you said, and usually 148 gr. wadcutters in .38 Special cases at very low velocities in order to reduce - no eliminate - recoil. Apparently, PPC shooters are very much afraid of recoil in any quantity. Maybe they are also afraid of muzzle blast and barrel/cylinder gap blast. As for the cardboard killing power of PPC cartridges, I can tell you that I have seen, with my own eyes, instances where bullets of PPC revolver shooters were not punching through paper targets but tearing them apart. No holes, only paper tearing. Not enough speed to make clean holes in the paper - without cardboard behind it.
PPC = Daunting ! To say the least.
Now, I have nothing against revolvers. I love revolvers and I only shoot "Double action". Any caliber. I cannot remember exactly when was the last time I shot a revolver in "Single action". Must have been at least twenty years ago. At least. More like thirty. I have never owned a Single action revolver in all my life - and never will.
But I do love revolvers in "Double action" mode.
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I am the opposite. Hardly ever shot double action until very recently. I am looking forward to doing it again. It should make me a better Glock shotter, too.
.38 Special has recoil now?
In the often 40 shooter+ PPC events we threw in the Queretero Club in Mexico, the "minimum power factor" was the .380 ACP cartridge as any non-reloaders in the Clubs wanting to use a stock Glock 25 would be using factory ammo. The "tink tink crowd" as we referred to them. Generally, the reloaders used a 125 Power Factor loading, usually a 160 grain Lee tumble-lube SWC and around 3.3 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye giving around 800 fps from a 4-inch Model 10.
A couple of times, the dedicated "Combat crowd" threw a "Big Boy PPC" with a 180 powerfactor stipulated to enter. And there were people that felt a 180 powerfactor was still too fey and wanted a 200 powerfactor. We never did a 200 powerfactor PPC but I can see it happening if the current powder/primer desperation ever works itself out and the Commie lefties don't succeed in disarming the Western World.
I did take a video of what shooting the first stage of the PPC would be like using a 200 powerfactor -- I was using a 200 grain SWC bullet we cast from an Accurate Mold that we pushed out of my 6-inch remarked Model 28 at just over 1,000 fps. One of the primers misfired, not because of a light spring because I don't use them but because we were using some pretty junky primers from Tecnos Industrias that would misfire in the Glocks and occasionally in the revolvers. But powerful loads and double-action can work out just fine if you work at it. The Model 28 is an N-frame, and it's quite heavy enough that a 200 grain bullet at 1,000 doesn't buck too much.
The 205 grain "spaceship" bullet we used for the Coonan's we brought down remarked as .38 Specials on the left, the 202-grain Accurate Molds SWC in the middle and a standard Lee 160 grain TLSWC on the right. Both the "spaceship" and the 202 grain SWC are routinely loaded up over 1,100 fps in the remarked .357 Magnums. My friend Michael has loaded it up to 1,240 fps out of his 6.5 inch Model 27 for pin shooting, and reports it blows the pins into next week.
Shooting the first stage of the PPC using my 6-inch Remarked 28 and the 200 grain SWC at 1,000 fps for a 200 powerfactor. Despite one bad primer, it's a good representation of a powerful load shot double-action.
In the 9-pin events, revolvers are quite competitive but since the pins are at the back of the table, a normal 160 grain SWC at about 850 fps is plenty. Like a 130 - 135 powerfactor. Reloading speed is important. The 9-pin events we throw separate revolvers and autos since autos generally can do the whole 9-pin event without a reload. Mexico has no magazine restrictions so a Beretta 92FS in .380 Cal with an 18-round mag is totally fine. Again, double-action accuracy is a must.
For the fullbore 5-pin event, the pins are 3 feet in front of the back of the table. "The load" generally used is the Elmer Keith Heavy Duty load, the Lyman 170 grain LSWC and 13.5 grains of 2400. That generally gets the job done quite well. And you have to shoot double-action if you want to have a snowball's chance in hades of winning. However, at the next pin match I suspect a few people will be shooting the 200 grain SWC up around 1,200 fps because it's apparently so effective.
From a target-shooting point of view, double action shooting isn't going to win the Bullseye game. But from a self-defense point of view, shooting single-action would only rarely be called for: in the case where you had to make a precise shot at a medium range and actually had the time to do it. I realize Canada doesn't approve of the self-defense concept -- a stance that makes me nauseous as it indicates the people behind that stance have no clue what happens when only the bad-guys have the guns -- but double-action shooting is where it's at in the self-defense revolver world. Revolvers generally out-power automatics of equal size in Mexico where caliber restrictions are strictly applied, and power delivered quickly is what's needed in a defensive situation.
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Contrary to what many shooters will say, you are right. "Double action" revolver shooting WILL make you a better semi-automatic pistol shooter. No doubt in my mind. None.
From Guns Magazine, January 2017, Handguns, page 21, Massad Ayoo
"... the biggest strike against the revolver is not its relatively heavy double-action trigger pull. On the contrary, a smart, well-trained shooter will distribute the pressure on the trigger smoothly with any firearm, and I've said for decades that for this reason, the revolver fired double action only will teach the auto shooter how to best run a shorter trigger pull. "Now, Massad Ayoob is not always right but for the revolver used in "Double action" only, he is right. I discovered many years ago that he was indeed right.
Shoot your revolvers in "Double action" only and you will find out by yourself - just like I did.
P.S. I don't know who invited the little "Blue" devil in the picture but he is there I cannot get rid of him.
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In the often 40 shooter+ PPC events we threw in the Queretero Club in Mexico, the "minimum power factor" was the .380 ACP cartridge as any non-reloaders in the Clubs wanting to use a stock Glock 25 would be using factory ammo. The "tink tink crowd" as we referred to them. Generally, the reloaders used a 125 Power Factor loading, usually a 160 grain Lee tumble-lube SWC and around 3.3 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye giving around 800 fps from a 4-inch Model 10.
A couple of times, the dedicated "Combat crowd" threw a "Big Boy PPC" with a 180 powerfactor stipulated to enter. And there were people that felt a 180 powerfactor was still too fey and wanted a 200 powerfactor. We never did a 200 powerfactor PPC but I can see it happening if the current powder/primer desperation ever works itself out and the Commie lefties don't succeed in disarming the Western World.
I did take a video of what shooting the first stage of the PPC would be like using a 200 powerfactor -- I was using a 200 grain SWC bullet we cast from an Accurate Mold that we pushed out of my 4-inch Heavy Duty at just over 1,000 fps. One of the primers misfired, not because of a light spring because I don't use them but because we were using some pretty junky primers from Tecnos Industrias that would misfire in the Glocks and occasionally in the revolvers. But powerful loads and double-action can work out just fine if you work at it. The Heavy Duty is an N-frame, and it's quite heavy enough that a 200 grain bullet at 1,000 doesn't buck too much.
The 205 grain "spaceship" bullet we used for the Coonan's we brought down remarked as .38 Specials on the left, the 202-grain Accurate Molds SWC in the middle and a standard Lee 160 grain TLSWC on the right. Both the "spaceship" and the 202 grain SWC are routinely loaded up over 1,100 fps in the remarked .357 Magnums. My friend Michael has loaded it up to 1,240 fps out of his 6.5 inch Model 27 for pin shooting, and reports it blows the pins into next week.
Shooting the first stage of the PPC using my 4-inch Heavy Duty and the 200 grain SWC at 1,000 fps for a 200 powerfactor. Despite one bad primer, it's a good representation of a powerful load shot double-action.
In the 9-pin events, revolvers are quite competitive but since the pins are at the back of the table, a normal 160 grain SWC at about 850 fps is plenty. Like a 130 - 135 powerfactor. Reloading speed is important. The 9-pin events we throw separate revolvers and autos since autos generally can do the whole 9-pin event without a reload. Mexico has no magazine restrictions so a Beretta 92FS in .380 Cal with an 18-round mag is totally fine. Again, double-action accuracy is a must.
For the fullbore 5-pin event, the pins are 3 feet in front of the back of the table. "The load" generally used is the Elmer Keith Heavy Duty load, the Lyman 170 grain LSWC and 13.5 grains of 2400. That generally gets the job done quite well. And you have to shoot double-action if you want to have a snowball's chance in hades of winning. However, at the next pin match I suspect a few people will be shooting the 200 grain SWC up around 1,200 fps because it's apparently so effective.
From a target-shooting point of view, double action shooting isn't going to win the Bullseye game. But from a self-defense point of view, shooting single-action would only rarely be called for: in the case where you had to make a precise shot at a medium range and actually had the time to do it. I realize Canada doesn't approve of the self-defense concept -- a stance that makes me nauseous as it indicates the people behind that stance have no clue what happens when only the bad-guys have the guns -- but double-action shooting is where it's at in the self-defense revolver world. Revolvers generally out-power automatics of equal size in Mexico where caliber restrictions are strictly applied, and power delivered quickly is what's needed in a defensive situation.
I am in awe of your fast double action shooting. I can shoot a group that good. I can shoot that fast. But not both.
