Smokeless Loads for Antiques part 1 - 41 Long colt
- Thread starter sportee
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would blue dot not work in this case for reduced loads??
blue dot don't seem to be position sensitive. i know that they use realy small loads in rifle cases and it shoots
good???????
No offence taken. I really dont want to get beat up on here. just posting the progress, good and bad, so everyone can learn from it.
This project has involved tons of research. Granted there is some data for cowboy loads (with faster powders) and the standard 38 spl loads but again these use faster pistol powders. Unfortunately there is almost no loading data for pistol cartridges using slower rifle powders. The only that i came accross was the following:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/...rddata/44Cal(10.97mm)/44 Russian Page 130.pdf
Its 44 russian but using a 200 grain bullet in a similar length case Accurate is listing low pressures with 10-13 grains of 5744 (which has a similar burn rate to 4227).
Remember the idea was to use a smokeless powder with a slower burn rate than BP. The standard load tables use powders that burn far faster than BP. The whole procedure should have worked well but given the suspected chrony malfunction i ended up with way more powder than i should have.
Respected load data would have been great to compare to but its almost non existant for rifle powders in handgun loads. There are many other fella's doing this...using slower rifle powders in handgun cartridges...Just no data yet. And again, they have properly working equipment.
In the end nobody really knows what happened...without an actual pressure test we are all speculating. In one side it could have been as simple as low initial pressures not expanding the case fast enough slamming it back against the frame...on the other hand it could have been wayy too much powder for the cartridge. Remember that slower powders burn as they go down the bore...not just explode instantly in the case.
Either way, It was a test that i dont reccommend anyone try to duplicate. Stick to the listed tables. And of course i dont reccommend anyone use smokeless in an antque gun...even though i tried it.
You used some faulty assumptions - the 44 Russian has a much bigger case and a much bigger bore, so pressures would be much lower for a given powder load and bullet weight. There are a hell of a lot of 38 Special loads out there, and if none of them list your powder (then there's a story in that, but) you can always substitute the same amount of a slower powder if you must. However, every powder has a minimum pressure level at which it will function correctly, and if you get near that point, and are at muzzle velocities in the 500-600 fps range you risk a bullet not leaving the barrel.
According to Mike Venturino's book Shooting Sixguns Of The Old West, the 41 Colt held 21 to 22 grains of powder and the 44 Russian held 23 grains. That's not much of a difference. However, where the big difference comes in, as Andy pointed out, is the bullet/bore diameter. As the 44 Russian moves out of the case, the case volume expands much faster than the 41 case volume does with it's smaller 'plunger' size. This might explain the difference in peak pressures for similar loads.
The general trend today is to use fast powders for pistols for economic reasons. The downside is much higher peak pressures than you would get with slower powders for the same velocity. Sportee, did you chrono the Pyrodex load? That might give us something to compare your chrono readings with Venturino's, who got 809 fps.
The general trend today is to use fast powders for pistols for economic reasons. The downside is much higher peak pressures than you would get with slower powders for the same velocity. Sportee, did you chrono the Pyrodex load? That might give us something to compare your chrono readings with Venturino's, who got 809 fps.
Hey Sportee dont feel bad its not like we have to call you Stumpy yet eh!
Man ive had some strange things happen. Blowen the latch right off a SA S&W 44 Russian thats capable of 44 Special loads. Scarry stuff I never found the flying latch either ,well half of it!
but hey i learned a thing or to from it !
Im getting 930 FPS with a 245 SWC outa a 6.5 inch barrel Now
And i got all me fingers and thumbs.LOL
Man ive had some strange things happen. Blowen the latch right off a SA S&W 44 Russian thats capable of 44 Special loads. Scarry stuff I never found the flying latch either ,well half of it!
but hey i learned a thing or to from it !
Im getting 930 FPS with a 245 SWC outa a 6.5 inch barrel Now
And i got all me fingers and thumbs.LOL
Sorry, not yet. Ive got 2 bp loads. 13 grains pyrodex P under a 196 grain bullet in a shortened case. This gave about 600fps. My big load, 16 grains pyro under the same slug i havent chrono'd yet. With ths snow flying i might have to wait until spring now.
Alright, with some more research i found a load for the 41spl using H4227. With 13.5 gr of H4227 the data was showing 1010fps. Remember my test used 13 gr IMR4227 at 724fps. (something wrong)
With this data and the calculations i should get about 700fps with 9.5 grains of 4227. My test showed about 600fps with this load. Definite evidence that something is wrong with either the chrony or the way the chrony was set up.
With this data and the calculations i should get about 700fps with 9.5 grains of 4227. My test showed about 600fps with this load. Definite evidence that something is wrong with either the chrony or the way the chrony was set up.
Just to cross reference- I tried 9gr of IMR4227 behind a .44 round ball (about 128 gr) in my .44 Russian. TOO MUCH PRESSURE! The cases had to be driven out with a dowl.
On the other hand I used a full case of FFg (about 22 gr) under a .44 cal round ball loaded into the case, compressing the load a bit and the empties fall right out. This load drove the ball clean through a hard (bug kill) pine board 1.5" thick, knocking quite a chunk out of the back side.
On the other hand I used a full case of FFg (about 22 gr) under a .44 cal round ball loaded into the case, compressing the load a bit and the empties fall right out. This load drove the ball clean through a hard (bug kill) pine board 1.5" thick, knocking quite a chunk out of the back side.
Sounds like IMR 4227 is not a good choice. My experience has been with 5744, IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 in black powder pistol cartridges. All of them have worked well, and with moderate or even very low pressures (sometimes, too low, in the case of IMR 3031). Also, if a fellow is working up a load with one of these powders, he better start real low and make sure his Chrony is working. My starting load when developing a load for an original Schofield, put the bullet out the barrel at only 298 fps. That's fine. Never be afraid to start too low. The worst that can happen is a bullet stuck in the bore, which you simply pound out with a wooden dowling. The bonus is that you slug your bore at the same time. Better to start way to low that to start way too high. Sportee, thanks for posting your experience here. Even though it looks like a very bad load to use (i.e., never use it), that information is still valuable. I like my smokeless 44 Russian load. I've put almost 500 rounds through my sixguns now with that load.
I was reading last night that alot of guys are useing Trail Boss in there 45 70 loads up to 13 Grs in there lever guns and getting great groups.
Thats intresting as i shoot a Antique Martini in 45 70 and wanted a lighter load as the stuff i shoot is 1600 +FPS stuff with a 400Gr bullet.
The TB loads are light but at +1100 FPS will still do the deed up close to 100Yds i figger.
Thats intresting as i shoot a Antique Martini in 45 70 and wanted a lighter load as the stuff i shoot is 1600 +FPS stuff with a 400Gr bullet.
The TB loads are light but at +1100 FPS will still do the deed up close to 100Yds i figger.
I'm very nervous about Trail Boss in an antique pistol. It is a very fast powder with a very sharp peak pressure spike. If a fellow uses it in an antique pistol, I'd recommend staying well below original black powder velocities.
In response to smokeless in c&b guns...DONT TRY IT. Im sure others will respond the same way.
As for my experimenting...the 4227 definetly turned out to be a bad load...posting the progress is information to others of what to avoid.
Given that i couldnt find any 5744 (and still cant) i went with the 4227. I also have a can of 4759 that is a possibility however given the results i have got so far im going to hold off on any experimenting until i can find some 5477.
(from my research its appears that IMR 5744 is basically the same as the original smokeless developed by dupont around the turn of the century...developed as a replacement for black powders. Remember, its still smokeless!)
Until then i'll stick with the tried and true black stuff...and look for a new chrony
As for my experimenting...the 4227 definetly turned out to be a bad load...posting the progress is information to others of what to avoid.
Given that i couldnt find any 5744 (and still cant) i went with the 4227. I also have a can of 4759 that is a possibility however given the results i have got so far im going to hold off on any experimenting until i can find some 5477.
(from my research its appears that IMR 5744 is basically the same as the original smokeless developed by dupont around the turn of the century...developed as a replacement for black powders. Remember, its still smokeless!)
Until then i'll stick with the tried and true black stuff...and look for a new chrony
Kirk Trail boss was designed for Antique type pistols and ubreti top break antique copys and cowboy action shooting wasnt it?
I use it all the time its EX i love that ya cant throw a double charge without noticeing it, One look in the case tells you where your at.
I have been sticking to the 6 gr loads in the 45 colt its a mild retort compared to unique.
I agree if ya start loading it above the recomended specs thing could get ugly but i like it so far and am gona be doing some tests with my Gasser now that it Chambers a 45 70 case unaltered just shortened abit.
The Gasser has .098 thick chamber walls and the 45 70 fits in there rim and all just cutting about 1/2 inch of the length.
I already fired 7 Gr TB loads and it was like Pop Pop Pop not even close to as bad a kick as a domion 455.
I will be posting pictures and a report on my shortened 45 70 gasser TB loads
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Dingus, I think Trail Boss was designed to fill the case because of its tiny little doughnut shape (I think they're Tim Hortons shapes but can't tell for sure). However, the burning speed is around the neighbourhood of Bullseye. The good news is that a double charge is less likely, but the extremely fast burning speed is the bad news. Some fellows have had no trouble, but there were some fellows on another forum I was on that had sticky extractions and decided not to use it anymore. The key might be to stay below original black powder velocities. My preference for filling the case safely is to use slow powders. That solves both problems (filling the case but with low peak pressure). If a fellow is going to develop a smokeless load for his antique pistol, it might be good to start with a real slow powder, like IMR 3031. If you can't get enough powder in the case to get a decent velocity, try IMR 4198 and if that is still too slow, try 5744. Leastways, that's my procedure.
Sportee, I've heard good reports about Chrony's customer service.
Sportee, I've heard good reports about Chrony's customer service.
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