Softening a Norc M4 - Pics of brakes used on last page

[Bolivar]

Jerry

Unlike some posters to this thread, I don`t measure the size of my #### by the amount of recoil I absorb when I pull the trigger.

Thanks for trying your experiments and thanks for sharing.

 

[beltfed]

reducing the amount and pressure of the gas through the gas block is the best solution to this platform. I am so surprised there aren't adjustable gas blocks with a knob with various settings like the XCR.
would be very straight forward to make.

JP Enterprises amongst others have been making adjustable gas blocks for (predominantly) competitive ARs since the 80's....

I'd say the vast majority of people who run carbines are individuals that either don't care about the extra battering because they realize the guns are designed and built to take it, and/or they want them to run reliably with any and all types of ammo.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Jerry

Unlike some posters to this thread, I don`t measure the size of my #### by the amount of recoil I absorb when I pull the trigger.

Thanks for trying your experiments and thanks for sharing.

My pleasure. I got interested in tuning when I saw some videos on 3 gun matches then researched all the neat toys these shooters played with to tame their rigs.

Faster follow up shots, lower muzzle jump, optimized performance for their desired ammo. Alot of very interesting tech.

As I said, I no longer see recoil as a need during my shooting. I know it is a byproduct but I never seen scores improve by having more recoil.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

JP Enterprises amongst others have been making adjustable gas blocks for (predominantly) competitive ARs since the 80's....

I'd say the vast majority of people who run carbines are individuals that either don't care about the extra battering because they realize the guns are designed and built to take it, and/or they want them to run reliably with any and all types of ammo.

Given the large selection of parts that Brownells has offered over the years, I would say there is thriving market interested in recoil mitigation.

The gun may take it but reducing recoil can improve scores in all types of 'games'.

I saw the JP products year ago but they are not what I would have expected still to be after all these years. An allen bolt restricting a port does work but can have issues in operation.

An adjustable port gas block ala XCR and other battle rifles is my idea of what the AR should have.

I totally agree that the basic set up is to ensure functioning with the lowest common denominator. Of course it works BUT it could be so much more AND given the increasing use of suppressors, not a bad idea.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

I'll snap a pic when we drag it out to do the T&E work on the new 0827 unit that we're designing and producing for one of our dealers. Pretty simple, as most are, but we built ours with a mild incline to it to reduce the effect of rolling friction on the readout. It also has a holder on the sled for additional weights so if we're testing our brake against another product, we can add small weights to make up the difference so that the net weight of the sled is the same with both products and we can also determine actual efficiency versus dampening just caused by extra mass.

Look forward to your pics and results.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

I've found the best way to make the recoil of an AR15 more manageable is to remove ones tampon.

Not sure where you would put such a device in an AR

there is more to my testing then just easing the push on my shoulder.

but I am sure you have read my other posts by now.

Speed, that's what I am after.

Jerry

 

[beltfed]

Given the large selection of parts that Brownells has offered over the years, I would say there is thriving market interested in recoil mitigation

The gun may take it but reducing recoil can improve scores in all types of 'games'.

No question. The point I'm trying to make is that reliability is king - both in the field and on the range when the timer is going or when targets can disappear. Recoil reduction that leaves a gun inopperable on the line is an easy receipe for blowing a match...or in the case of those that serve, much worse.

 

[Mystic Precision]

So very correct which is what stuns me that any type of gas adjustment part is crude, potentially unreliable and certainly not easily repeatable.

My adjustments are fixed so will continue to function as long as fouling doesn't screw things up. So far, the fouling issues have been in the receiver/bolt carrier and a whole lack of lube

It's a set once and forget but there is no easy way to change for varying conditions so not ideal for the working world.

but for sport shooting, once the ammo is set, the gas system can be adjusted and 'should' stay stable. It sure shoots soft now.

That is the goal anyways.... and why I want to find out the limits on reliability by doing what I can to make it stop.

Jerry

 

[fourninerzero]

Recoil reduction? In a 223? Easy. Grow a pair.

 

[5440fight]

Wow, we're a little judgemental here eh?

Jerry and King,s armoury, keep up the good work, plenty of people can't shoot guns with big recoil because of injuries and eye issues (look up detached retinas), nice that innovations may let them shoot north america's most popular rifle again.

I like guns that rock me backwards (m44, no5 mk1, 12 ga. slugs etc...) , but being that I'm not 250 lbs of flab and gas, a less violent recoil is just as fun without the bruises. Those with cute comments about manliness can go back to crushing cans on their foreheads and making references to women being weaker, but ask your mom how giving birth to you felt before you perpetuate that myth.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I have no problems with the Macchismo posts. That is to be expected and predictable in nature. But I do agree with your observation on pain thresholds.

Child birth is not for whimps....Seeing your spouse deliver your children puts the world in a much different light.

But this is about shooting and my tweaks is all about getting recoil down - speed and control UP.

If you like being bounced around when you pull the trigger, good for you. It can be alot of fun. Been there, busted the shoulder.

But lower recoil can lead to better scores and quicker times, puts plastic on the wall....that works for me.

No rule book ever limits how much recoil you can enjoy. They only limit how little...

Jerry

 

[kingarmory]

I spend a lot of time shooting full-auto .223's and recoil reduction makes a huge difference even for someone my size. I'm 6'6" 275lbs (that's 2m and 125 kilos for you metric bastards ) and its still hard to hold a full-auto .223 steady.

 

[Fixit]

Recoil reduction? In a 223? Easy. Grow a pair.

show a little respect newbie.
you obviously have no idea

 

[Bolivar]

http://www.shadez-of-gray.com/servlet/the-73/Enidine-AR-dsh-15-Hydraulic-Buffer/Detail
[youtube]cBrMHzfMSh4[/youtube]
[youtube]QEy1Nzh7bMA[/youtube]

Anybody with experience with these care to chime in. I like the idea of a drop in recoil reducer that avoids a muzzle break.

 

[agrubin]

Still think adding a brake is the way to go. Especially if you're going to be playing games that need rapid shots.
Lots of different options out there, Holland's a good make. Unfortunately, I don't have any figures on the amount of recoil reduced. Just personal subjective experience.

 

[MagnumPeanut]

I must admit that at first I was disappointed with this rifle because of its snap. Its not really recoil, but a sharp snap when it goes off. I could see developing a flinch from it as it is pretty intense.
I threw a FAB brake on it and its amazing the difference it makes.
I made this video this weekend just for fun. Skip to 2:40 and you'll see the recoil now that I have the brake on there.
I am still interested in a buffer system that could reduce it even more. I really enjoy being able to spot my shots at close range.
[youtube]Pb7fz6Ex4cg[/youtube]

 

[Mystic Precision]

Still think adding a brake is the way to go. Especially if you're going to be playing games that need rapid shots.
Lots of different options out there, Holland's a good make. Unfortunately, I don't have any figures on the amount of recoil reduced. Just personal subjective experience.

Muzzle brakes only address 1 part of the recoil issue found in an AR platform and that level of recoil really isn't the problem. Just disable the gas going to the receiver and shoot the AR single shot. Recoil is very mild with standard 55 and 62gr ammo which is exactly what you would expect in a 7ish lbs rifle.

Try it. It will be very enlightening.....

The muzzle device I would want would be a ported device to reduce muzzle climb and even the twisting/torque of firing. Full auto shooters would be all smiles with this add on.

A true muzzle brake will increase the noise signature to the user which is not good if you don't have quality hearing protection.

The big culprit is that all that alum and steel slamming into the rear of the rifle. The AR is actually a recoil ENHANCER/Multiplier. Add in the impact of 800rpm and you make operation that much harder.

Why there is so much effort in rate reduction and shock absorption...see parts above. But all these parts add weight and complexity to a system which simply allows Mr. Murphy more time to make life interesting.

Controlling the amount of energy that enters the receiver is the simplest way to solve so many issues (what I have done). Then some very simple parts to tame the remaining forces and you have reached all your goals WITH NO PARTS THAT CAN FAIL.

The one thing I see as a positive for the gas piston mods is that most have some form of gas regulation. Crude but at least some thought was given. I see there are other issues that go with gas piston rigs but that is another story.

There are a few ways that overgassing and the variability of ammo can be dealt with. Most are not that complicated which stuns me nothing exists.

From what shooters more experienced then me have suggested, shots that don't hit your intended target DON'T COUNT!.

Jerry

 

[fourninerzero]

show a little respect newbie.
you obviously have no idea

Thanks for that. Post count and internet rep is clearly indicative of real world knowledge and experence.

 

[RememberTheSomme]

Norinco recoil

Mystic, my Norc C8A1(sorry i'm canadian,jk), according to my son who's an Infantryman kicks considerbly harder than his C7(Elcan, vertical grip,sling.20inch bbl,etc) We have only fired 55 M193 ball from it and seeing you are using 62s maybe thats a factor as well. From the bench mine will group around 5/8th inch at 50 yds with Remington UMC. Never tried these at longer range. Maybe try the 55s they seem great in this rifle/twist combo. As someone else posted, i told him the same thing about the more intense muzzle blast from the shorter 14.5 barrel under an overhang roof on our range. May add to the sensation im not sure. But i know it is sharp for a small cartridge. Seems like a 35,000psi muzzle blast no volume but sharp nonetheless. To me the recoil seems mild. If yours feels like a 12ga with field loads thats a violent gas cylce for sure. Wheres yours throwing brass with factory gas porting?

 

[Satain]

http://www.shadez-of-gray.com/servlet/the-73/Enidine-AR-dsh-15-Hydraulic-Buffer/Detail
[youtube]cBrMHzfMSh4[/youtube]
[youtube]QEy1Nzh7bMA[/youtube]

Anybody with experience with these care to chime in. I like the idea of a drop in recoil reducer that avoids a muzzle break.

Ya I tell you my thought's on it;

1. Did tame the felt recoil and with the Smith Enterprise muzzle brake it felt like shooting a 22LR.
2. Noticed feeding issue's on some lighter handloads that required me to hit the forward assist button a couple of times.
3. Also was worry about the little metal rod that they use for the piston was going to break but it never did.

I ended up scrapping it because it felt to much like shooting a 22 and got an 22 upper instead. Honestly I noticed if you are shooting in the proper stance and use the sling properly felt recoil from the 223 is after time not noticable.