The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD

Memnoch - can you provide a closer range image of the bent charging handle? I saw the early prototype gen 2 at TACCOM 2023 and the charging handle looked SUPER proto-type-ey. Maybe a couple of angles if possible, if you don't mind. I'm really curious if it changed at all between the early prototype and what they're actually selling as the Gen 2 Templar.

I'd also like to see if it would fit on my Gen 1 Templar upper.

There you go. Be aware that the scope mount can still interfere depending on the mounting style. In my case, I was able to manage the mount just before the hold open notch. The issue is not the mount per say, it's the mount bolt. Some mount use flush mounted hex bolt...

As I stated earlier, I really like the charging handle configuration.

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Locked back:
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Bolt hold open engaged:
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Been on the fence about one of these for some time - with the Gen 2 changes they're even more appealing.

Reason for my stalling is what seem to be QC and reliability issues.

What seems to be the consensus on these rifles - have they overcome some of the hiccups and now worth purchasing with confidence?

I Agree with MAcpapronin. You have to keep in mind that these companies are roughly the size of a three door garage shops, with 2-3 employees... They don't have the muscles of IMI, CZ, etc... What is expensive in any engineering project is not the actual production, it's the development phase. That's the reason the F35 has astronomical cost, because it took 20 years to develop. CZ, will put 100 000s of rounds through prototypes to tweak designs. None of the small Canadian manufacturers can't afford to do that... You have to keep thing in perspective.

All that being said, I think the Templar design is mature and is the strongest of the domestic 180 variant available. Of course, you will need to address minor issue, Loctite screws etc... In the end, I am grateful that a few companies have stepped up with balls of steel in these precarious times. You also have to be patient since they basically produce rifles "on order" and don't hold stocks. (You never know if some Turd will prohibit your product without notice rendering your stocks worthless).

I would only hope that Crusader would address their customer support and ordering page.

My 2 cents

Mem
 
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Thanks for the pics, Memnoch. It looks like they cleaned up the lines and general finish of the charging handle but kept the general approach and shape. Not bad, a little better than what I saw in the prototype. Still a little wonky looking, but if it works...

Are you able to tell if the charging handle is now permanently attached to what the Templar manual calls the "charging pin" - the rod that pushes back the BCG when you work the charging handle? Previously it was held on with hex bolts.

I ask because I'd actually love to replace the charging handle on my gen 1 Templar upper with that one. Maybe I'll contact CA.
 
Thanks for the pics, Memnoch. It looks like they cleaned up the lines and general finish of the charging handle but kept the general approach and shape. Not bad, a little better than what I saw in the prototype. Still a little wonky looking, but if it works...

Are you able to tell if the charging handle is now permanently attached to what the Templar manual calls the "charging pin" - the rod that pushes back the BCG when you work the charging handle? Previously it was held on with hex bolts.

I ask because I'd actually love to replace the charging handle on my gen 1 Templar upper with that one. Maybe I'll contact CA.

Yes permanently welded. In my opinion, this seems more reliable and robust. The main downside is that makes the handle almost impossible to switch sides. If you do, the handle would now point skywards like a galil and probably be in the way of optics. Someone wanting a gen2 with the handle on the right side would need to source a gen 1 handle.

CA could develop a "right side" charging handle. Given a majority of users will leave it on the left, unsure if that would be wortwhile for them.

Mem
 
Thanks for the barrel nut info Memnoch. Crusader themselves told me some crap about proprietary barrel nut and how it would need to be sent to them to have the barrel removed.
 
Thanks for the barrel nut info Memnoch. Crusader themselves told me some crap about proprietary barrel nut and how it would need to be sent to them to have the barrel removed.

On second tough, they probably right. I'm unsure about the nut, I'm guessing probably a free float regular barrel nut.

Still unsure what type of wrench to use. As you can see, space is limited, you'll need to find a wrench that fit in there. Maybe modify an existing wrench...

I want to remain honest, I haven't tried removing the barrel. I like the gun as it is and probably never remove it.

Mem
 
I Agree with MAcpapronin. You have to keep in mind that these companies are roughly the size of a three door garage shops, with 2-3 employees... They don't have the muscles of IMI, CZ, etc... What is expensive in any engineering project is not the actual production, it's the development phase. That's the reason the F35 has astronomical cost, because it took 20 years to develop. CZ, will put 100 000s of rounds through prototypes to tweak designs. None of the small Canadian manufacturers can't afford to do that... You have to keep thing in perspective.

All that being said, I think the Templar design is mature and is the strongest of the domestic 180 variant available. Of course, you will need to address minor issue, Loctite screws etc... In the end, I am grateful that a few companies have stepped up with balls of steel in these precarious times. You also have to be patient since they basically produce rifles "on order" and don't hold stocks. (You never know if some Turd will prohibit your product without notice rendering your stocks worthless).

I would only hope that Crusader would address their customer support and ordering page.

My 2 cents

Mem
Thanks for the review Memnoch, do you think the Crucible 7,62x39 will be as good as the Templar?
 
Essentially, this is a templar in 7.62x39, so you can expect the same quality and finnish.

Devil is in the details. There will probably a few tweaks that will be required. Keep in mind that the 180 geometry was designed for the 5.56mm. From an engineering POV, the 7.62x39 is always tough to integrate in a 5.56 platform. Most of the time it has problems.

This is a pre-sale meaning that these will be the first production rifles, so some issues are to be expected. Also, companies tend to generate hype early on to keep the interest up. Gen 2 Templar was unveiled at Taccom 23 (sept) but production seemed to have pick up pace in feb 24. You might put a pre-order in but be aware that it may take a while before you get the rifle in your hands.

If you can afford it, i would wait to see the first consumer review. On the other hand, you run the chance of missing the boat should new prohibitions come down without warning...

My 2c

Mem
 
Essentially, this is a templar in 7.62x39, so you can expect the same quality and finnish.

Devil is in the details. There will probably a few tweaks that will be required. Keep in mind that the 180 geometry was designed for the 5.56mm. From an engineering POV, the 7.62x39 is always tough to integrate in a 5.56 platform. Most of the time it has problems.

This is a pre-sale meaning that these will be the first production rifles, so some issues are to be expected. Also, companies tend to generate hype early on to keep the interest up. Gen 2 Templar was unveiled at Taccom 23 (sept) but production seemed to have pick up pace in feb 24. You might put a pre-order in but be aware that it may take a while before you get the rifle in your hands.

If you can afford it, i would wait to see the first consumer review. On the other hand, you run the chance of missing the boat should new prohibitions come down without warning...

My 2c

Mem

Thanks , I think I will wait to see the first review
 
Glad to see the Gen 2 is working out well for you Memnoch. I’ll be following your posts on this thread closely, been thinking of a Templar since they were announced and have been hesitant with the information shared on the Gen 1.

Miss having a semi auto 223/556 to shoot in the woods/pits.
 

It's a heavy gun. Even with the recent changes which shaved between 0.5 and 1 lbs off the weight from Gen 1 to Gen 2 (pencil barrel, new handguard profile, different Mlok and cutout placements) - it's still between 0.5 and 1 lbs heavier than most of the competition.

If you buy the Templar, in any of its incarnations, it's heavier than it probably should be. That said, the extra weight really dampens the recoil impulse. If you can get used to it, it's really fine.

The way I look at it, our forebears carried around rifles and LMGs that weighed 8, 9 and 10+ pounds. Yes, most contemporary rifles are lighter, for sure. I won't lie, compared to other lighter rifles, you start to feel the weight of this rifle after a couple dozen unsupported shots. If you want to count every ounce or gram on your rifle, this isn't the rifle for you.

The trade-off that Crusader Arms made for spending less money on design and development, QA, QC and reducing the overall cost was to have a heavier, slightly more prone to minor problems rifle.

You save $250-1500 ($2550 if you include the B&T APC 556) by buying the Templar Gen 2 depending on which alternative you choose, but the trade-off is weight. The BCL Siberian SRV 2 is a lot lighter and a bit cheaper, but has (had?) gas block issues. The R18 is lighter, but is more expensive by about $250 and some people say the gas system is a little picky with some types of ammo. The Raven is pretty solid so far, much lighter, but you also pay $500-750 more depending on what options you get - the first gen had BCG issues. The X95 is maybe a little lighter (though the gen 2 may be lighter now) and much more reliable, but you're spending $250-500 more. The Bren 2 is lighter and much more reliable, with better features, but NR 18.6" barrel 5.56 versions are going for $4400+. The Bren 2 5.56 restricted versions (8", 11") are MUCH lighter can be had for ~$2700-3300... but they're restricted. The WK180 has gone through enough iterations now that it's a moderately reliable firearm, even more so if you spend $300-500 on upgrades, which takes you right back into the $2k range that the Templar sits in. The B&T APC 556 is a beautiful. quality rifle that also weighs 1.5 lbs more than the Gen 2 and costs ~$4800, more than twice the price of the gen 2 Templar.

So... choose your poison. With the Crusader Templar Gen 2, you get a rifle that weighs about 0.75-1.0 lbs more than it should, but is decently reliable and has decent features, and you pay less than everything else except the BCL Siberian and the WK180.

If you want to go with the buy-once-cry-once philosophy and you don't care about Canadian manufacturers or think they don't deserve our support in their current incarnations, buy a X95 or Bren 2 NR - they are both undoubtedly better made, more reliable and generally better featured rifles with a proven track record.

I like my Crusader Arms Dual Caliber Combo (Gen 1 Templar upper) and I'll be keeping it for the foreseeable future.

[ I've previously compared all the weights of most "modern" service rifles and the various 5.56mm rifles available in Canada here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...pectre-LTD?p=19728248&viewfull=1#post19728248 ]

Memnoch - would you possibly be able to weigh your Gen 2 completely naked, no mag, no sight, etc. ?

I ask because CA has often posted weights which don't seem to correspond with actual measured results by end-users, and I'd like a "real world" weigh-in to be able to compare properly.
 
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Great read Mac.

I will try to make time to weigh the rifle tonight.

A friend of mine has a (converted) NR Bren 2 and my initial impression was that the Gen 2 was lighter mainly because of barrel profile. (I can be wrong, just an impression)

The main source of weight in my case is the scope and mount. When shooting irons, i was amazed how light the Templar was.

Mem
 
Glad to see the Gen 2 is working out well for you Memnoch. I’ll be following your posts on this thread closely, been thinking of a Templar since they were announced and have been hesitant with the information shared on the Gen 1.

Miss having a semi auto 223/556 to shoot in the woods/pits.

You only have one life to live, don't let it pass you by!

;)


Mem
 
Great read Mac.

I will try to make time to weigh the rifle tonight.

A friend of mine has a (converted) NR Bren 2 and my initial impression was that the Gen 2 was lighter mainly because of barrel profile. (I can be wrong, just an impression)

The main source of weight in my case is the scope and mount. When shooting irons, i was amazed how light the Templar was.

Mem

That's much appreciated, Memnoch - if you're going through the trouble of taking off optics and such, could you also possibly measure where the point of balance is relative to the front of the magwell on the Gen 2 Templar?

For comparison, when my Crusader 9 with the Sentinel (Templar Gen 1) upper is mounted on my lower and no optic, the point of balance is about 0.25-0.5" inches forward of the front of the magwell. With an LPVO mounted, the point of balance is about 1" rearward (towards the stock) of the front of the magwell.

I'm going to guess that with the lightening changes that have been made, the point of balance is probably right in the center of the magwell, or possibly even further back.
 
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Templar weight

Took the time yesterday to play with the scale, here we go:

Naked rifle:
3700 Gramms = 8.15 lbs
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Burris RT-6 + Burris P.E.P.R mount
759 Gramms = 1.67 lbs
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Other accessories
463 Gramms = 1.02 lbs
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Point of balance
Forward portion of the front pivot pin (See cleaning rod)
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A friend of mine weighted his Tavor with ACOG and accessories: 4353 Gramms = 9.59 lbs. He also had an old 16in AR-15 with carry handle: 3300 gramms = 7.27 lbs.

In comparison with the current offerings, Templar is relatively heavy once kitted (Total 10.84 lbs). Averaging 1 pound more than an equivalent AR-15. But it still easily manageable. I was shooting in the standing posn, hitting a 8" target with ease at 100m.

I hope this info helps.

Mem
 

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I'm glad that an actual, independently weighed Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 is shown to be 8.16 lbs. Prior to the Gen 2, the Gen 1's weight was reported as 8.2 lbs, which, having objective proof that the Gen 2 is 8.15 lbs, was clearly not the case (I have the cut and pasted weight specs as presented on the CA website showing Gen 1 Templars claiming to be 8.2 lbs). In their promotional materials and Instagrams, they claim to have shaved off a pound of weight from the Gen 1s.

I don't know what they were measuring before, but I think the Gen 1 is closer to 9 lbs naked. I think my Crusader Sentinel (more or less a gen 0 Templar) weighs about 9.2 lbs naked, which tracks, it being more or less the same rifle as the gen 1 Templar.
 
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It appears that they have cleaned up the machining on the Gen 2's Lower Receiver somewhat as well. It looks good! The most positive change between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 Templar wasn't the weight reduction, although that is certainly welcome. No, it was the replacement of that crap-tastic Bolt-Catch Lever (the one that kept self-disassembling), with a standard AR Bolt Catch that got my attention. Thank goodness!!!

Although I am firmly sold on the LTAC Raven as the best of the current Canadian offerings, the Crusader Gen 2 Templar or the Sterling Arms R18 Mk 2 would be my second Canuck choice. I'm not quite ready to stake my life on anything semi-auto and Canadian-made, but with the quality of the Raven and the Gen 2 Templar we are getting closer to that point with every new iteration. Progress is good!
 
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It appears that they have cleaned up the machining on the Gen 2's Lower Receiver somewhat as well. It looks good! The most positive change between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 Templar wasn't the weight reduction, although that is certainly welcome. No, it was the replacement of that crap-tastic Bolt-Catch Lever (the one that kept self-disassembling), with a standard AR Bolt Catch. Thank goodness!!!

Although I am firmly sold on the LTAC Raven as the best of the current Canadian offerings, the Crusader Gen 2 Templar or the Sterling Arms R18 Mk 2 would be my second Canuck choice. I'm not quite ready to stake my life on anything semi-auto and Canadian-made, but with the quality of the Raven and the Gen 2 Templar we are getting closer to that point with every new iteration. Progress is good!

I agree progress is good, and trying to be as objective as possible, the LTC Raven with the gen 2 BCG (gen 3 BCG? I've lost track) is probably the best intersection of value/dollar for a Canadian-made 5.56mm semi-auto rifle. As noted above, had the Raven been available in larger numbers or having had a better seller reputation in September 2022 when I was looking at SA 5.56mm rifles, I might have gone for the Raven.

Then again, had I purchased then, I would have had the potentially defective gen 1 BCG... so...

Also, @memnoch, thanks for the point of balance illustration. I confess it feels further forward than I was expecting - that's more or less a few millimeters back from where my Sentinel balances when naked - I had thought the lightening modifications would have moved the point of balance further back. Ah well, c'est la vie!

PS - I hesitate to disagree with the knowledgeable Bartok5, but I liked (still like, as it's on my CA DCC lower) the lever-style bolt release on the Gen 1 upper. Yes, it is a little prone to self-disassembling, as he rightly points out, but as long as you keep an eye on it in regular maintenance, I like operating it better than the AR15 paddle style. Personal preference, of course!

I agree it's the right marketing/design decision to go to the tried and tested AR15 paddle on the Gen 2 -it's familiar and reliable to most shooters. I do liked that they at least tried to innovate a little with the bolt release on the Gen 1, even if it was ultimately unsuccessful.
 
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