Weird things with .22LR match ammo

I'm not sure I get the point of what you're saying here. How is it invalid because one of the components seemed to have a variance smaller than the scale's resolution? I think the point I was making was that bullet weight varies quite a bit. Having trouble seeing a difference in the powder charge weight due to the equipment used doesn't change that. Bullet weight still varies a lot even if I don't know how much the powder varies.

Shorty: I applaud your effort to measure bullet weights. That is alot of work and we all appreciate it. But the entire force of acceleration is due to the chemical energy content and burning performance of the powder and primer. Your post acknowledged that the resolution of the weighing device was not sufficient to discern any differences. But 0.1 grain resolution we know a-priori, is not sufficient resolution for very small volume/mass of powder. As the volume and mass of powder decreases, the tiny differences in powder mass from case to case create proportionally larger acceleration force differences. 0.1 grain of powder difference in a .338 magnum caliber cartridge is close to negligible. But that same 0.1 grain powder difference in a .22 rimfire case could be highly significant, and therefore requires 2,3, maybe 4 decimal places to explain the kinetic energy differences caused from the powder burn dynamics).

Many a science experiment fails from the get-go due to non-suitable apparatus for the required accuracy, and methodology flaws, leading to invalid results and conclusions.

What comes first is the force applied to accelerate the bullet, and that has everything to do with the energy conversion from chemical to kinetic, which all comes from the powder and primer (assuming an even firing pin strike force).

None of this comment negates your evidence of significant differences in bullet weight. I would guess those differences in your data do indeed affect trajectory and POI to very significant numbers. However without the powder weights controlled for, they are hopelessly confounded.

(Aside: Your graph of bullet weight proportions per brick is good work, but stats-wise it should be shown as a bar graph. A line graph connecting data points implies a continuous relationship between mass and proportion, which is not the case for these variables. They are distinct. I know I know - picky statistics nerd stuff!)

(Aside 2: The "line" graph, which should be a bar chart, does show what looks like approaching a normal distribution bell curve. That is a good sign indicating that your sample size was approaching sufficient to describe the distribution. There is still that jagged double peak in the middle which is concerning because it will confound the mean and SD. Obviously the bell curve would become more refined and symmetrically shaped as the sample size increased, and likely bell-up that double peak in the middle to reflect a more accurate mean, and thus a better SD. Perhaps a few dozen more bullets in the sample would likely smooth that out and fill in the double peak. Adequate sample size is not easy to attain in this rimfire science, so I appreciate the effort).
 
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Shorty, you're clinging to a discreditable argument. In the same bore, when a bullet begins at 0 fps and accelerates to 1085 fps at the muzzle it gets there in one way only. Two .22LR bullets in the same bore will not accelerate in different ways to get to the same MV.

While different "acceleration curves" provides a convenient explanation to support and lend credence to the view that bullets with the same MV may not cause the barrel to vibrate the same way, it's not one that holds water. It implies that a tuner does its job by causing allegedly different acceleration curves to change and suddenly become similar. It's like having the cake and eating it too.

You make some really strange logic jumps. I think this is the third time now where I'm looking at what you said and wondering how you even got from point A to point B because the destination seems unreachable. Having different acceleration curves isn't some convenient cop out. No two rounds burn the same way. This is fact. People with expensive pressure measuring test setups have confirmed this over and over, and many of them share those results online, such as the graph I just showed you. You denying it or not understanding it doesn't change what it is. A bullet accelerates because of the gas pressure behind it. More pressure equals more acceleration, and less pressure equals less acceleration. Graphs like that show you that the pressure is not constant, and it in fact varies up and down quite rapidly. When the pressure varies, the acceleration varies right along with it, even if you don't think so or you don't understand how or why. I'm not clinging to a discreditable anything. I'm talking about basic physics. With real-world data to show what's going on. Something isn't magic or unknowable or BS just because you personally don't understand it. None of us knows everything. But we can all learn something from each other. Or, at least, when we are actually open to learning something. That may not be the case for you. If you'd like to continue discussing it so you can fill in any gaps that may exist in your knowledge on the subject, that's cool. But if you're just going to slam your fist on the desk like Tarantino's Hitler screaming nein, I'll leave you to it. You asked a question, and you've been given several reasons as to why it is happening. You not liking the answers or not understanding the answers only has to do with yourself. I'm wrong as much as anyone else. In this case, you happen to be wrong about there only being one possible acceleration curve to reach e.g. 1085 fps.
 
(Aside 2: The "line" graph, which should be a bar chart, does show what looks like approaching a normal distribution bell curve. That is a good sign indicating that your sample size was approaching sufficient to describe the distribution. There is still that jagged double peak in the middle which is concerning because it will confound the mean and SD. Obviously the bell curve would become more refined and symmetrically shaped as the sample size increased, and likely bell-up that double peak in the middle to reflect a more accurate mean, and thus a better SD. Perhaps a few dozen more bullets in the sample would likely smooth that out and fill in the double peak. Adequate sample size is not easy to attain in this rimfire science, so I appreciate the effort).

After measuring 500 rounds I was pretty surprised to see that dip. Some previous examinations showed a fairly normal distrubution at around that count, and sometimes even at way less than that.

Lapua Super Club 08742 21341 - 450 rounds

grains - number

50.8 - 2 (0.44%)
50.9 - 15 (3.33%)
51.0 - 53 (11.78%)
51.1 - 88 (19.56%)
51.2 - 121 (26.89%)
51.3 - 80 (17.78%)
51.4 - 65 (14.44%)
51.5 - 20 (4.44%)
51.6 - 3 (0.67%)
51.7 - 3 (0.67%)

CCI Blazer - 180 rounds
grains
51.4 1 0.56%
51.5 12 6.67%
51.6 67 37.22%
51.7 71 39.44%
51.8 15 8.33%
51.9 13 7.22%
52.0 1 0.56%

Eley Target Rifle - 855 rounds
50.7 13 1.52%
50.8 25 2.92%
50.9 52 6.08%
51.0 106 12.40%
51.1 227 26.55%
51.2 200 23.39%
51.3 167 19.53%
51.4 47 5.50%
51.5 18 2.11%
 
I updated the other chart to a bar chart for you. ;)

uc


And I've also weighed another brick while watching TV last night. I'm even more surprised now that the weird dip didn't get any better. In fact, it got a little worse, and the whole thing just looks even further from normal overall than the first brick by itself. This one is both bricks combined.

uc


I really don't know what to make of it. I wonder what their bullet swaging stage looks like. Maybe there's more than one die and irregularities between them is the cause of this weirdness. Just a wild guess. I don't know what their loading machines are like. I don't recall ever seeing an ammo lot looking anything so far from normal out of all the ones I've measured over the years. Very odd. Hmph. Whatever's going on, there seems to be some kind of rhythmic strangeness in the manufacturing that's taking things out of the realm of a normal distribution and giving it that irregular but seemingly repeating behaviour. Looks like 50.8 has started poking its head up even further now, too. Weird. It would be interesting to see what the loading machine is actually doing from start to finish to look for clues, heh.
 
You make some really strange logic jumps. I think this is the third time now where I'm looking at what you said and wondering how you even got from point A to point B because the destination seems unreachable. Having different acceleration curves isn't some convenient cop out. No two rounds burn the same way. This is fact. People with expensive pressure measuring test setups have confirmed this over and over, and many of them share those results online, such as the graph I just showed you. You denying it or not understanding it doesn't change what it is. A bullet accelerates because of the gas pressure behind it. More pressure equals more acceleration, and less pressure equals less acceleration. Graphs like that show you that the pressure is not constant, and it in fact varies up and down quite rapidly. When the pressure varies, the acceleration varies right along with it, even if you don't think so or you don't understand how or why. I'm not clinging to a discreditable anything. I'm talking about basic physics. With real-world data to show what's going on. Something isn't magic or unknowable or BS just because you personally don't understand it. None of us knows everything. But we can all learn something from each other. Or, at least, when we are actually open to learning something. That may not be the case for you. If you'd like to continue discussing it so you can fill in any gaps that may exist in your knowledge on the subject, that's cool. But if you're just going to slam your fist on the desk like Tarantino's Hitler screaming nein, I'll leave you to it. You asked a question, and you've been given several reasons as to why it is happening. You not liking the answers or not understanding the answers only has to do with yourself. I'm wrong as much as anyone else. In this case, you happen to be wrong about there only being one possible acceleration curve to reach e.g. 1085 fps.

Shorty, you continue to make statements that are based on convenience, not evidence. Your explanations defy common sense and logic and are tailored to suit your inconsistent and unsustainable point of view.

You claim that .22LR bullets with the same MVs can have different "acceleration curves" or acceleration rates to get from 0 fps to their ultimate muzzle velocity. You claim also that different acceleration curves explain why bullets with the same MV can have different exit angles from the same barrel. And you claim that it is these different exit angles that cause MV/POI mismatch.

The premise of your view is false. Bullets such as .22LR don't have different acceleration curves or acceleration rates.

In post #37 above, for example, you would have readers believe that two different .22LR bullets moving in the same bore from chamber/leade to muzzle are like two different drag cars. In your own words: "Having the same muzzle velocity does not mean they must have had the same acceleration curve. Ever watch drag racing? Two cars can have the same elapsed time but have different trap speeds because one had a different acceleration curve than the other. Two cars can also have the same trap speeds but different elapsed times because one had a different acceleration curve than the other."

This is nonsense. Bullets don't behave similarly to drag cars. Cars have engines and accelerators (gas pedals) for continuing and changing sources of power. Bullets, however, have only the initial detonation of primer and powder to power them to the muzzle. Once the round is set off, so to speak, its journey to its MV is set. It has no gas pedal.

Two different .22LR bullets in the same bore with the same MV will have the same "acceleration curves" or rates of acceleration. They will cause the barrel to have very similar vibration patterns. They will have very similar exit angles. Based on their MV, they should have similar POI. When they don't that's the "weird thing" about .22LR performance.

It's unfortunate that you compare me to the Nazi dictator, a sign perhaps that you understand your bluster is exposed. At any rate, Godwin's Law would suggest that this debate should end. It's no longer productive and this discussion has become tainted.
 
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This is nonsense. Bullets don't behave similarly to drag cars. Cars have engines and accelerators (gas pedals) for continuing and changing sources of power. Bullets, however, have only the initial detonation of primer and powder to power them to the muzzle. Once the round is set off, so to speak, its journey to its MV is set. It has no gas pedal.

This is, in fact, the gas pedal you speak of:

uc
 
I leave you laddies (ladies? :d) alone for a couple weeks and this is what I come back to? Good grief. Evidently, any further commentary I might have on the matter would only fall on deaf ears and thus would be a waste of energy. Some folks just have to come to their own realizations, however, if they're stuck in a bias they're unlikely to do the work necessary to bring about such a realization, unfortunately.
 
I leave you laddies (ladies? :d) alone for a couple weeks and this is what I come back to? Good grief. Evidently, any further commentary I might have on the matter would only fall on deaf ears and thus would be a waste of energy. Some folks just have to come to their own realizations, however, if they're stuck in a bias they're unlikely to do the work necessary to bring about such a realization, unfortunately.

I'll only post here to invite you to share your ideas. When you were posting under the name RabidM4U5 you would never have hesitated.
 
Clear eyed views of reality have already been posted, I have little to add beyond rephrasing in my own words in some vain attempt that such might break through certain mental barriers. I'll share when I feel that I have something of sufficient merit to offer, towards a receptive audience.
 
Clear eyed views of reality have already been posted, I have little to add beyond rephrasing in my own words in some vain attempt that such might break through certain mental barriers. I'll share when I feel that I have something of sufficient merit to offer, towards a receptive audience.


Even if it's mixed in with a bit of pretended modesty, what shines is the cocky, arrogant attitude of your former self when you were posting as RabidM4U5. That persona has been banned, of course, perhaps in part because of late night home brew. Readers familiar with Rabid's style and predilections expect him to jump in and tell posters when and why they are wrong. Although Rabid was often misguided (remember that Lilja barrel that allegedly couldn't shoot -- at least the ammo you gave it?), he did provide a diversion.

Is this a more circumspect version of RabidM4U5, who was often quick to anger and even quicker to respond? That Rabid was willing to take risks.
 
With all of the other factors at play (wind, humidity, barrel fouling, harmonics and the quality of your barrel, shooter and front rest inconsistencies, etc), I doubt that 10 or 20fps will really make all that much difference. In other words, I don't think that the groups/fliers that you're seeing have as much to do with velocity as you might think. In my experience, once you find ammo that your rifle really really likes, it's mostly about the shooter and the front rest setup. Just my opinion and experience.
 
With all of the other factors at play (wind, humidity, barrel fouling, harmonics and the quality of your barrel, shooter and front rest inconsistencies, etc), I doubt that 10 or 20fps will really make all that much difference. In other words, I don't think that the groups/fliers that you're seeing have as much to do with velocity as you might think. In my experience, once you find ammo that your rifle really really likes, it's mostly about the shooter and the front rest setup. Just my opinion and experience.

You may be new to this thread and might have rethought your observation had you read a little more closely. I don't think the flyers had anything to do with velocity.
 
The .22 guru has spoken, everyone else just read and have no opinions ... what a self important windbag!

It's not a question of opinion. You must think that canuck read things correctly. When readers don't understand what is being discussed they can easily misunderstand. You must be new to the thread too. Of course, reading levels may be in decline.
 
It's not a question of opinion. You must think that canuck read things correctly. When readers don't understand what is being discussed they can easily misunderstand. You must be new to the thread too. Of course, reading levels may be in decline.

No I’ve read it, how else would I form the windbag conclusion ... come on keyboard warrior people can have their own opinions and findings based on their shooting experiences.
 
You may be new to this thread and might have rethought your observation had you read a little more closely. I don't think the flyers had anything to do with velocity.

Isn’t that exactly what I said? If I misread the OP, my apologies, but I don’t think I did.
 
Isn’t that exactly what I said? If I misread the OP, my apologies, but I don’t think I did.

Below is what you said.

With all of the other factors at play (wind, humidity, barrel fouling, harmonics and the quality of your barrel, shooter and front rest inconsistencies, etc), I doubt that 10 or 20fps will really make all that much difference. In other words, I don't think that the groups/fliers that you're seeing have as much to do with velocity as you might think. In my experience, once you find ammo that your rifle really really likes, it's mostly about the shooter and the front rest setup. Just my opinion and experience.

I take the bolded sentence to mean that you said the groups and the fliers don't have as much to do with velocity as I might think. You're saying I think fliers have to do with velocity.

In my reply I said I didn't think the fliers had anything to do with velocity.

Is there another way to read it?
 
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