Why are Canadian's too good to patch when they shoot?

[stormbringer]

I already answered you on this before. Nobody anywhere is saying RO's should'nt shoot. RO's are supposed to be shooters too. Where are you getting this from? :

Well I got it right here where you said it........

Here's the problem: If you are current RO, you are expected to referee your fellow competitors. This is unaceptable as it does not preserve the notion of the single most important principle in sport: fair play, or the right of a competitor to an un-biased application of the rules.
.

IF I canot compete against other shooters because of my R/O status............i cannot shoot. Plain and simple. Or are R/os going to become some sort of outcast "worker caste" that compete only against themselves? LOL!!

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

...and how does this remove the possibilty of Bias or favouritism?

The only whay to do that (let's deal with Canada for now) would be to bring in all the match officials (save maybe the RM's) from another country and not allow them to shoot the match.

If bias for favouritism exists...it will continue to exist independedt of RO Schedule...

You side stepped some of my questions...so here's another one...

What if one of the top shooters decides he wants to shoot the prematch...and work the rest of the match as a dedciated RO?

Fine by me. No top shooter goes to a match to work usually. You either work, or try to do well, but you usually can't do both.
You're still not getting the point though. Maybe a few of us should get together and put it down on paper and thrash it out over dinner somewhere.
What about steak? Seems to work for Fatty B!!!
My fingers hurt. How do you do it all day???

 

[stormbringer]

. Sometimes people need a little extra motivation. It's human nature.

Hey I think you stumbled onto the motivation all by yourself!!!! But you seem to be against it already.

I think you missed the part where I said we shouln't have "workers" playing with props or examining the stage they "work" all day, while the other shooters cannot even touch the props or be on the stage.

Edit to add...........I laughed out loud when I read this part.

You can't count on the generosity and goodwill of all shooters to step up to do the thankless jobs that tireless officials like yourself gladly do. .

 

[Quigley]

My fingers hurt. How do you do it all day???

I play steel string guitar...can;t feel a thing.

But yes I get it...it's just I think there's pros and cons to both sides...

Steak sounds good...why don't you guys sign up for the RA Level 2 next week-end.

 

[AlexS]

nationals

Well I got it right here where you said it........





IF I canot compete against other shooters because of my R/O status............i cannot shoot. Plain and simple. Or are R/os going to become some sort of outcaste "worker caste" that compete only against themselves? LOL!!

I think you need to re-read it slowly. You would shoot the pre-match for score. Where's the problem?

 

[AlexS]

nationals

Hey I think you stumbled onto the motivation all by yourself!!!! But you seem to be against it already.






Edit to add...........I laughed out loud when I read this part.

What, you're not gladly working like a dog??
You seem pretty happy when I see you at matches though.....

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

I play steel string guitar...can;t feel a thing.

But yes I get it...it's just I think there's pros and cons to both sides...

Steak sounds good...why don't you guys sign up for the RA Level 2 next week-end.

Is the match sat and sun??

 

[stormbringer]

The problem is your risk of BIAS still exists. You need to extend the ramifications of your concerns.

If you are concerned about bias ( I am not BTW as I love and trust my fellow man.........well not Chompy) then officals simply CANNOT compete. That is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn.

In the other sports you speak of like Hockey for example. The "officials" lack the ability to compete in the game at the level they want to achieve. They officiate in an effort to remain close to the upper levels of the sport. That is not the case in IPSC and I for one am glad for it.

 

[Quigley]

Is the match sat and sun??

Sat & Sun

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

Sat & Sun

I'll see if I can rusltle up some of the pain-in-the-ass guys for Sat.
Ipsik??? Fatty B?? The whip?? Oh, wait. I forgot. The whip is into fishing now. We're not good enough anymore, I guess.

 

[Ipsik]

Should shooters patch?

For Stormbringer

I think you are jumping to conclusions without understanding the whole concept.

I/we are suggesting there be a call for RO's and CRO's to officiate at the Canadian Nationals where they would be (at least partly) reimbursed with accomodation, meals and some travel expense and complimentary match fee......in exchange they would agree to shoot the pre-match for score ( and RO each other as we will trust the match to them) and then work the main match.

The match should be at least 1-2 days shorter by using this format ( 18 stage could be shot in 3 sessions of 1/2 day shooting - RO's would be at the range all day however...that is why they get reumbursed)

Shooters would then be expected to patch each other in their own squad. ( an even better solution would be to have local charity club do the patching for donation but this is difficult to arrange, has been done though).

If you don't want to be an RO at the Match no one is making you. ( well they are now but wouldn't if this was in place)

PLEASE do not argue with this unless you have actually shot a match outside Canada and seen it done!


For Quigley

As to fairness...as long as every shooter is given exactly the same chance to shoot the stage well I am satisfied.

This cannot happen if shooters RO each other on different days, handling props, starting shooters differently, making different calls, scoring hard or scoring soft ( if you don't think this exists I have a bridge to sell you) all differently from the other set of RO's.

Quigley said "We measure everything with a timer and a ruler (position on the target)
As a competitor you get to follow the RO and check the targets...if you disagree...you can arbitrate..."

Not true, all the really important calls are by what the RO says the competitor did...finger on trigger, broke 90, AD and cannot be questioned,..scoring is done as fast as possible to keep the match going,...does this hit touch the line, is this a double? ( as if they existed), can be scored hard or soft, are often interpretation....which is fine as long as the same RO is interpreting everyone the same for the whole match.

I do not expect this to happen at the 2007 Can Nats because it takes a lot of planning to put in place, more importantly the will to do it.

As for cost, it is very possible, if all the silly freebies that MD's try and give away were used towards funding the dedicated RO's it is very possible.
If the match budget were drawn up with this in mind and the match fees reflected the quality of the match ,my experience says a match fee of 250 dollars would be totally adequate for 180 -220 competitors and 25-30 RO, CRO and staff.

The Guelph LVLIII matches have put 160 shooters through and turned several thousand in profit with $85 fee, while givng 1 day RO's money back.

 

[stormbringer]

PLEASE do not argue with this unless you have actually shot a match outside Canada and seen it done!


.

You were fine until you got to this point..

I have a very VIVID imagination......................

 

[Quigley]

I'll see if I can rusltle up some of the pain-in-the-ass guys for Sat.
Ipsik??? Fatty B?? The whip?? Oh, wait. I forgot. The whip is into fishing now. We're not good enough anymore, I guess.

Actually I'm a month ahead of myself...

The Level 2 is next month...

Next week-end is a Level 1 - Saturday only

 

[Madness]

"Not true, all the really important calls are by what the RO says the competitor did...finger on trigger, broke 90, AD and cannot be questioned,..scoring is done as fast as possible to keep the match going,...does this hit touch the line, is this a double? ( as if they existed), can be scored hard or soft, are often interpretation....which is fine as long as the same RO is interpreting everyone the same for the whole match.
"
A perfect example of this was at last years Nat's on the stage to the left of the "no-shoot, memory, brain-#### stage" where you start with your back to the targets. I was told to start with my head straight to the front, but the day before I watched everyone start with their head turned looking at their first popper to engage. @ different RO's 2 different start positions.

Blake Miguez shot on the pre-shoot in Ecuador, to answer Quig's question.

"If you try and make this about being bias (just a nice way of saying cheating)...you're not going to get very far."
I witnessed this first hand at the N.B. Nats on the "dock" stage. 2 RO's from the same province "head hunting" all day, I was running the clipboard. A shooter from their province ran up to the front of the middle dock then came back, the RO stepped of the dock and allowed himself to be in front of the shooters gun by a good 10 feet or more. Got back on the deck and followed the shooter once he started moving lateraly to the left sode port. You think an RO would call stop if was able to get a view down a shooters barrel from the muzzel end.

 

[Quigley]

A perfect example of this was at last years Nat's on the stage to the left of the "no-shoot, memory, brain-f**k stage" where you start with your back to the targets. I was told to start with my head straight to the front, but the day before I watched everyone start with their head turned looking at their first popper to engage. @ different RO's 2 different start positions.
Blake Miguez shot on the pre-shoot in Ecuador, to answer Quig's question.

Well that's the the CRO is for...and they were dedicated to the range...so no system is perfect.

Ya I went out to the range to watch some of the pre-shoot and saw Miguez shoot about 6 stages...not bad. Couldn't figure out why he was on the pre-shoot though.

 

[Madness]

Cause he pissed off all the Big BOys when he scammed a reshoot at the US nats which swung a good chuck of points his way. That's what Robbie, Todd and Mike are talking about on the match DVD.

 

[Slavex]

couple things that come to mind (and yes I have shot outside the country Mike). First off in looking at things like expenses, we have the highest expense when it comes to airfare to our matches. In European countries, you can take the train, or fly for typically 1/4 of what it costs to fly from province to province here. Same in the USA. Canada as a region is bigger than every other region on the planet, and in fact bigger than most put together. Yet if we combine other regions together they have many more shooters than us.
Even in the island regions of Asia, airfare between islands is cheaper than what we pay for airfare here.
On top of that is travel time, again being the single largest geographic region on the planet we also have much larger travel times, many hours more than most regions outside of the USA.
Add all that in and you are easily doubling the cost of having RO's and CRO's reimbursed for working a match.
From talking to people in other regions, mostly in Europe, they usually get help from neighboring regions for their big matches, so the locals can compete and not have to worry about working. In polling these people about half of them patch their own squads targets, the rest have workers doing it. Yes they pay more, but again in those countries it seems to be the more "social elite" that compete. This was also pointed out to me in Ecuador by a local who's boyfriend was on the Ecuadorian team. Outside of Canada, the US, and Australia, it's not your typical "working man" people shooting IPSC. It's the richer people doing it. The people who can afford the much higher match fees. This isn't to say there aren't people from the working class shooting in other countries, but it's certainly not at the same level as you have in North America.
Add all that together and you end up with Canada being a region with not enough people (in my opinion) to pull off a dedicated RO and CRO squad, who are reimbursed to work the match. Even if we patch our own squads.
The suggestion we have from Mark for this years Nats should work pretty good. You're looking at 3 days dedicated to the match out of 5.

 

[AlexS]

nationals

"The people who can afford the much higher match fees. "

If you go to match registrations for IPSC level III's, you'll find they are NOT more expensive than ours. A proposed match fee of $250 for our nationals is a lot more than almost everywhere else. The exception would be the US nationals, which is $250 US. They give away tons of prizes, hence the higher entry fee. Most area matches are around $100-200 US, also mostly with prizes. We give away trinkets you and I pay for. I don't need a keychain. I want a decent match that doesn't require a week to shoot. That's what the world shoot or a continental championship is for.

 

[Slavex]

I've found over the few (5 actually I guess?) years I've been involved that a lot of the clubs look at large matches as a way for the club to make money. I think that is problem number 1. I run things at my club (numerous events) not to generate a profit, but to increase membership by making the club look good. I'm happy if I break even. If I lose a little bit I am fine with that too. Perhaps we need to look at what the true goal of hosting a large match like the Nats is? redefine that goal so that host clubs can focus on the right stuff, instead of just the bottom line?

 

[Ipsik]

Cost of Nats

Slavex and doubters

If 200 shooters pay $250.00 each to shoot the Nats
the gross is $50,000.00

If it takes 40 R0's CRO' and staff to run the match and we re-imburse the 1/2 of them that travel far at the most 500 travel, 300 room and 200 meals and this is generous that is 20,000, the balance will be local so we reimburse them 300 for room and 200 meals = 10,000 Total is $30,000 at the most.

This leaves at least $20,000 to run the match...assuming most clubs big enough to run the match have most of the props needed this should be more than ample.

Unless the host club is running it to make a profit, in that case of course they will not want to pay for RO's

By the way Last year it was $175 x about 231 shooters = about $40,000 paid to run the match. I don't know what it was spent on.