Anschutz 64R Tactical Trainer 64R AND 64MPR

Canadiankeeper said:
So, got the word back! Id like to thank Nordic for their phenomenal customer service! Always super quick in getting in contact with me. I have never had an order go wrong or ever been disappointed by them!

My group is not some some odd ball group. The target passed the accuracy test! So my rifle should be able to do this! lol
(18mm Is the required group size, I didn't catch the distance. I wonder with what ammo ?)

Basically I need to keep trying ammo out and one will be what works.

The brick if Midas + should be here in a couple days then back to the range. I was also recommended in playing with the torque settings...

I generally find an ammo the rifle "likes" then tune in the torque settings. Is that how the rest of you do it also?
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Anschutz tests .22LR at 50 meters. See FAQ at h t t p s://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?menu=25&sprache=1&frageID=%05%BA%D2%FD%C4TG%C9&FAQID=%03%14%F4%19%B2%E0r%CD

It might be more productive to find the torque setting that produces the best results with what ever ammo is used and then find ammo that shoots even better.

SND said:
As far as I'm concerned a proper pillar bedding is essential to accuracy in just about any rifle, mostly this type, my MPR 64 didn't shoot worth a crap out of the box, but after I fixed it up, no problem.
Second thing, any scope even brand new out of the box, even on a .22lr, can be a bad scope.
The issue you're having there is not ammo related, nor ammo fixable.
I'll never run crappy cheap bulk ammo through a match rifle, always good match ammo, lapua or eley.
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It may be a bedding issue, as SND suggests. And he is absolutely right about the scope. If you haven't done so already, try a different scope with different mounts. That should be part of the "figuring out the problem" protocol. Finally, as SND says, the problem is not ammo related. It seems improbable that the rifle in question will shoot only one or two particular kinds of ammo well and give only poor results with everything else, including good quality match ammo.

It is true that in many rifles some ammos shoot better than others (and that some lots of some ammo shoot better than other lots -- but you are not at there yet). The thing to keep in mind is that, if you are trying to achieve a measure of consistency at, say, 50 yards, most every decent ammo that is tried should give some kind of consistent results, perhaps not the most desirable but at least consistent. In other words, while perhaps something like Center X may not be the best, that is yield the smallest groups, it should nevertheless produce consistent results. You appear to be getting arbitrary results and that is not be the result of not using the best ammo for the rifle.

What causes the arbitrary results? There are a number of possibilities, including bedding, scope, mounts, shooter technique (not all rifles respond equally to the same technique).

What happened to the very promising results posted initially?

Canadiankeeper said:
I lay down 2 groups both come in right at .200 of an inch. Now im giddy with excitement. So i quickly make the needed adjustments to my optic. Then spend the next 190 rounds chasing groups.

1st group (5 shots in the .250 inch area)
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Yes, I think Remounting the optic will have to happen. I have an el cheapo 3x9 kicking around I could try out.
Although I torqued everything down to proper specs and used Loctite

The rifle is not bedded but it achieved the test target being that way. So it should be able to be replicated.

You can see the promising group in the first post here in the ammo testing... First group with center X is very good. (bottom left)
 
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I am sure you must be frustrated spending a good chunk of change on a high end rifle and not getting the accuracy and consistency as one would expect.
So now you have to do some trouble shooting to figure out what exactly the problem is. I doubt that it is an ammo issue but rather an optic issue or a bedding issue.
First thing I would do is try your scope on a different rifle that is known to be accurate. I would put it on a rifle with some recoil ( centre fire) to see if it will hold zero.
If the scope checks out the next step I would take is to properly pillar and bed the action. Guys in this thread have suggested trying differrent torque setting on the action screws and yes that is the cheap way to fix a bedding issue. So with that in mind if the group size and point of impact changes dramatically with different torque values then you will know that you have a bedding issue.
 
r204 said:
I am sure you must be frustrated spending a good chunk of change on a high end rifle and not getting the accuracy and consistency as one would expect.
So now you have to do some trouble shooting to figure out what exactly the problem is. I doubt that it is an ammo issue but rather an optic issue or a bedding issue.
First thing I would do is try your scope on a different rifle that is known to be accurate. I would put it on a rifle with some recoil ( centre fire) to see if it will hold zero.
If the scope checks out the next step I would take is to properly pillar and bed the action. Guys in this thread have suggested trying differrent torque setting on the action screws and yes that is the cheap way to fix a bedding issue. So with that in mind if the group size and point of impact changes dramatically with different torque values then you will know that you have a bedding issue.
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^question for you... (or anyone who knows more about bedding than I do)

I'm seriously considering one of these rifles and while my approach/ammo choices/end-use probably differs from CanadianKeeper's...I do have high expectations re: accuracy. I've never bedded a rifle, nor have I ever had someone else do it..so..I think I'd have some reservations dumping this much $ into a rifle, and then making IT the Guinea pig for my first bedding job. Anybody have any recommendations on who might be the best person to send this rifle to if I didn't want to take it on myself? Not 100% sure I'd even WANT to have it done until I was da*n good and satisfied that I'd exhausted every other approach, SHORT of messing with the action screw torque settings. Seems to me bedding would be the better route to go...but I could be wrong.
 
Canadiankeeper said:
ELEY TENNEX AND X ACT are on deck after midas +
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You have the black box Eley Match, correct? In my experience, if you don't see any potential with any of the several options in a brands lineup, Tenex and X-Act are unlikely to "be the one", they are simply the same ammunition as the "lesser" grades (Match, Midas, Center-X..), but the small sample they pulled from the production run for "testing" did a little better *in their test rifles*.

If Midas doesn't do it for ya, I'd start trying some RWS, and perhaps a zippier load than standard velocity, such as Rifle Match "S" and R-100. Also some Special Match, if you don't want to drop R-50 coin, then that pretty well covers the RWS lineup.

Re: Torque, say we're doing a process of shooting 10 five-shot groups per box/brand of ammo to test. Start with a general 24 inch-lbs, shoot 3-4 groups to allow for "seasoning" the barrel with the bullet lube. Have groups 3 & 4started to come in? Great, continue testing the box. No? Well, it's unlikely to get any better, so you're at a "no-loss" crossroads to start changing things up. Your barrel is seasoned at this point, so any target result changes will represent any tweaks you make (to the best of your shooting ability, call a bad shot and discount it from your evaluation of the group). Increase your action screw torque by 2 inch-lbs, shoot a group, evaluate. Keep increasing torque until you see good results, one group at a time. If a setting looks good, shoot several groups to confirm. You may find some settings make it shoot worse, for ex. 30-40 inch-lbs range in my XXII turned it into a shotgun, it's best below 30.

If that procedure of torque tuning didn't yield a positive result, I'd strongly consider adding a barrel support shim for the next ammo type, about 3-4 inches in front of the chamber. Start back at 24 inch-lbs, shoot 3-4 seasoning groups, then start working the torque settings again. If groups 3 & 4 look good with the shim, by all means shoot a few more to confirm before increasing torque.
 
Thanks for the info guys. Going to ensure it is not the optic then remount it.

The brick of Midas + will be here tomorrow. I will play with torque settings using that brick.

22-35 so will start at 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34.
 
Anschutz test shoots barrelled actions, but for the most part distributors like Nordic bolt on the stock of a customers choosing. We all know that the chunk of wood that the barrelled action is sitting in and the action bolts connecting them are an integral part of the accuracy on paper 50 yards down range... when I see vertical stringing, I first suspect action bolt torque, next the various contact points between wood and metal... 95% of the time (IME), your search ends there. (P.S - I didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been well covered).
 
Canadiankeeper said:
Thanks for the info guys. Going to ensure it is not the optic then remount it.

The brick of Midas + will be here tomorrow. I will play with torque settings using that brick.

22-35 so will start at 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34.
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Just curious where you ordered your ammo? I would like to order some that I cannot get locally but most places the shipping is crazy
 
Until its bedded properly, you're honestly just wasting ammo. That wasted $ could quickly go to making this a great shooting rifle.
I don't personally believe for one second in torque tuning, even less so in 2lb increments, eff that, its a wood stock, any tiny change in temp and humidity screws up any torque setting, and the thin steel type pillars that come with it are really no good. Bed it good with custom made pillars, if its got a 2pc trigger guard/plate get it welded as 1 piece, bold her solid, shoot tight groups. But yeah, doing all that kinda voids any warranty if there is another problem, though that's quite unlikely.

FYI that test target is NFG as far as I'm concerned, clearly shows 2 groups with a vertical problem, just the same as nearly all your groups.
Just telling it like it is.
 
grauhanen said:
Finally, as SND says, the problem is not ammo related.
Strictly speaking, right, good ammo is being used. It's a barrel issue, related to the particular vibration/harmonic pattern of this barrel in relationship to the ammunition used. The only variable that can be easily manipulated at this juncture is the ammunition used, in hopes a particular load lines up with the barrels vibration.

You appear to be getting arbitrary results and that is not be the result of not using the best ammo for the rifle.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Not enough ammo has been tried to make this assertion. Should several varieties of ammo from all the major manufacturer's yield arbitrary results, evidence begins to support a dud barrel. Perhaps one variety not yet tried may produce the excellent results sought after.
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Scope issue is highly unlikely, I'll give credit to possible, so you should go through the protocol of eliminating the scope as a variable, but I'll bet that the scope is just fine.

Bedding, again same as scope, highly unlikely. The stock is factory pillared (up to you to judge the quality of the pillar job), and Anschütz typically does a very good, tight job of inletting their stocks. I've seen these symptoms in several rifles where pillars and bedding had no effect on the consistency.

Given the factory target displaying the split group tendency, and based on my experience with several rifles displaying these symptoms, there are two root causes which are, IMO, the most likely reasons for the observed performance. First option, which we are hoping for since we can work with it, is a picky barrel. Just a quirk of bore diameter, stresses in the steel, quality and consistency of rifling twist (buttons can slip during the rifling process), and fitment of the barrel to action, among other factors. I would be looking for a way to significantly modulate the barrel vibrations, which would be either a barrel weight or tuner. The shim in the barrel channel as I suggested previously is more subtle in it's influence, but could help if the barrel is just teetering on the ragged edge of being in tune. There's no real way to know what's going on with the barrel vibrations, short of paying a visit to Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe and using his measurement apparatus. We're stuck trying a thousand different options, firings thousands of shots, and trying to make sense of the observed results. What I observe here are symptoms of the rifle being out of tune, or:

Second option: The barrel is a dud. A dud barrel can still shoot the odd good group, thus the "passed" accuracy test, and some of the good groups you've shot with it, but it will never be consistent in performance no matter what ammo is tried or any bedding, shimming, torque or other such modifications. Performing a slugging analysis, I've linked presence of tight/loose spots in the bore, that is, an inconsistent bore diameter, to such variable and stringing target results. Re-barrel is the only solution, since lapping, recrowning and rechambering simply isn't practically cost effective.

There's much testing to be done yet to determine whether "picky" or dud", though having the barrel slugged may give insight as to whether or not you're fighting a losing battle. Should it slug well, this favors the barrel being picky about the load and gives confidence you'll eventually find the right combination. Slugging poorly supports a dud barrel, paired with inconsistent results from everything tried.
 
SND said:
Until its bedded properly, you're honestly just wasting ammo. That wasted $ could quickly go to making this a great shooting rifle.
I don't personally believe for one second in torque tuning, even less so in 2lb increments, eff that, its a wood stock, any tiny change in temp and humidity screws up any torque setting, and the thin steel type pillars that come with it are really no good. Bed it good with custom made pillars, if its got a 2pc trigger guard/plate get it welded as 1 piece, bold her solid, shoot tight groups. But yeah, doing all that kinda voids any warranty if there is another problem, though that's quite unlikely.

FYI that test target is NFG as far as I'm concerned, clearly shows 2 groups with a vertical problem, just the same as nearly all your groups.
Just telling it like it is.
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I was told the test target is fine and that it is not an abnormal or alarming test target direct from the source.

I will no do any modifications to the rifle to void warranties or change it from factory spec.

How do you "not believe" torque settings dont have an effect. Even the distributor recommended torque spec testing.


RabidM4U5 said:
Scope issue is highly unlikely, I'll give credit to possible, so you should go through the protocol of eliminating the scope as a variable, but I'll bet that the scope is just fine.

Bedding, again same as scope, highly unlikely. The stock is factory pillared (up to you to judge the quality of the pillar job), and Anschütz typically does a very good, tight job of inletting their stocks. I've seen these symptoms in several rifles where pillars and bedding had no effect on the consistency.

Given the factory target displaying the split group tendency, and based on my experience with several rifles displaying these symptoms, there are two root causes which are, IMO, the most likely reasons for the observed performance. First option, which we are hoping for since we can work with it, is a picky barrel. Just a quirk of bore diameter, stresses in the steel, quality and consistency of rifling twist (buttons can slip during the rifling process), and fitment of the barrel to action, among other factors. I would be looking for a way to significantly modulate the barrel vibrations, which would be either a barrel weight or tuner. The shim in the barrel channel as I suggested previously is more subtle in it's influence, but could help if the barrel is just teetering on the ragged edge of being in tune. There's no real way to know what's going on with the barrel vibrations, short of paying a visit to Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe and using his measurement apparatus. We're stuck trying a thousand different options, firings thousands of shots, and trying to make sense of the observed results. What I observe here are symptoms of the rifle being out of tune, or:

Second option: The barrel is a dud. A dud barrel can still shoot the odd good group, thus the "passed" accuracy test, and some of the good groups you've shot with it, but it will never be consistent in performance no matter what ammo is tried or any bedding, shimming, torque or other such modifications. Performing a slugging analysis, I've linked presence of tight/loose spots in the bore, that is, an inconsistent bore diameter, to such variable and stringing target results. Re-barrel is the only solution, since lapping, recrowning and rechambering simply isn't practically cost effective.

There's much testing to be done yet to determine whether "picky" or dud", though having the barrel slugged may give insight as to whether or not you're fighting a losing battle. Should it slug well, this favors the barrel being picky about the load and gives confidence you'll eventually find the right combination. Slugging poorly supports a dud barrel, paired with inconsistent results from everything tried.
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I refuse to believe the barrel is a dud, from the horses mouth they have yet to ever have this brand of rifle have accuracy problems.
 
I've been reading these posts with interest and with much surprise . This is not typical Anschutz accuracy based upon my experience with my MPR . I would have expected the 64 Trainer to shoot just as well . A few observations that I've made with my rifle . When shooting off a bipod ( which is 99% of the time ) , I put a piece of carpet under the legs if shooting on a bench . As you know , .22LR accuracy is all about ammo consistency and harmonics , and my MPR shoots NOTICEABLY better with the bipod feet on carpet . You wouldn't think it should make much difference , but it does on my rifle . Also , my MPR is very sensitive to how it is being held . A tight grip vs a very soft grip produces different results . I find it very difficult to hold the rifle exactly the same way every time . It takes a serious effort on my part to do it exactly the same way every time . Typical 5 shot groups at 50 yards off the bipod are in the ..300 - .350 range using SK Standard Plus . Center X is noticeably better . Even cheap old CCI SV shoots in the high .300's . When using SK Rifle Match , yesterday my MPR shot 3 groups back to back in the low .200's . Something is going on with your rifle or setup causing it to shoot that poorly . Have you tired a simple rubber X Ring damper ? Cabela's has them and they definitely alter harmonics .

 
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Hmmm...I think I have a heavy rubber band that will wrap around the barrel a few times before it becomes snug. Might try that myself! Who's callin' me Bubba?
 
Yeah, I played around with the X-Ring on my XXII (which has similar vertical issues like the OP with some ammo) and my results ranged from "no apparent difference" to "worse". I tried it in a number of spots near the muzzle, at some point I'll bring it back to the stock and move out from there, but I found an actual tuner had a really positive influence, so when I find time to get to the range again, I'll be trying the tuner with the extra weight set I got with it. The X-Ring is probably better for rifles that already shoot fairly well to begin with. I won't say it won't work, cause ya never know unless ya try, it is certainly cheap enough and can go on another rifle if it doesn't work out.
 
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