M40 Family - Who owns one?

[deadman]

Ok here goes with today's attempt. My targets are a mess but I'll try walking through it to see if they make sense. They are a little busy, I was trying to conserve paper today.

Used a sled at 43 yds again to see if it was better than bags. Two 5 shot groups at top of target, outlined.

Moved out to 111 yds and my first group was dead center 1.1" (between the first two 43 yd groups). Shooting high, not sure what happened there. I took a few more shots at another target and confirmed it was shooting 6" high for the 100 yd setting on the scope. Re-zeroed it and put the center group on the target (large bull). Not great, but ok 1.81". The sled was disappointing, it had a lot of wiggle in it and I found I actually shot better without it.

My next two groups were top left/right, outlined. This was on a bench with front and rear bags.Both under an inch (barely) but better than with the sled, .70" and .91".

Then I went prone on the mat with front/rear bags, bottom left/right. About on par with the sled from a bench, 1.21" and 1.0".

This second pic is another set of groups with the sled, I figured I should give it a chance. Not impressed, both around 1.5"

After that I moved to 218 yds. My center target was 10 rds of me messing with the elevation/windage to correct my notes from AG's Unertl chart. The other groups should be self-explanatory I guess.

Out to 327 yds, this one should be good for a laugh. I'm all over the map here. And I have what I fear is a couple shots that are MIA, I thought I was doing all 5-shot groups.

There it is, for better or worse. The sled was inconclusive for me I think, I was shooting better without it. Just have to keep practicing.....

 

[ArmedGinger]

Looking at the targets I would say conserve ammo until your trigger is in. That would be the next step. It may still be your ammo selection. What ammo have you tried in it? Are you loading or factory? What bullet type and grain?

Were are you located? If you were near I'd say stop on by the gunsmithing shop and I'd help you test is out but you're probably not close enough for that. I know how frustrating it is, the feeling like a dog chasing it's tail.

It's not the scope that I can see. I would lean towards bullets and/or trigger/user (no offense meant of course).

 

[deadman]

I've been shooting 80-100 rds with each session, mostly Fed GM SMK 168 gr. I've also tried Hornady Match 168 gr BTHP but the majority have been the Federals. Haven't been making my own yet, wanted to see what factory would do and have a baseline for what the rifle should do before I work on my own. Interestingly, the come-ups on the chart seem to be pretty much spot-on for 168 gr. That being said, I've only taken it out to just over 300 yds, that may change once I stretch it out further. I have a bunch of 175 gr SMK coming in the mail next week so it will be interesting to see how much difference there is.

I'm in Sask, but thanks for the offer. It is a bit frustrating but at the same time this is new to me so I DO expect some growing pains. Also, I am starting out with a pretty basic entry level rifle. There was no paperwork in the box guaranteeing much of anything accuracy-wise. Maybe its not realistic to expect that kind of accuracy from this rifle, time will tell.

I don't think its the scope, although I do have a couple concerns with it. The fact that it didn't go back to poa when I reset it for 100 yds today and then had to re-zero it puzzles me. Other than that it has been dead on. The other thing is maybe more about my eyes than the scope, at 300 yds I can barely make out the rings on the smaller targets, let alone see my hits. So maybe accurate shooting beyond is not realistic for me. Again, time will tell.

I hope the new trigger will help, and no offense taken. Happy to have others here to bounce my questions off and get feedback.

 

[deadman]

Oh and here's a crappy pic from the range to break up the wordiness. Wasn't trying to de-rail this thread's original path.

 

[ArmedGinger]

Just a silly question, have you happened to try 20 rounds of say cheap Federal 150gr blue box?

 

[deadman]

No I haven't. I guess it can't hurt, I was assuming sticking with something more "spec" would be the way to go but maybe should branch out and see what other types do. It would be a little easier on the wallet......

 

[Don_Parsons]

I can't wait to get my clone M-40 mid weigth rifle underway.

Definitely a 3x9 optic for the hunting category.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fF5pKiUotsg6NyoPA

 

[Walnutz]

Here is my M40A5 build I had done from C&H Precision weapons in the states. Its a thing of beauty. Since this pic I have added a Nightforce NXS and harris bipod.

 

[deadman]

I can't wait to get my clone M-40 mid weigth rifle underway.

Definitely a 3x9 optic for the hunting category.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fF5pKiUotsg6NyoPA

Nice, the only cat in my life is a surly old tabby my wife brought home cause we needed a mouser at our old house. Thankfully I pawned it off on my sister, but it still bites me whenever I go to her house. I do have a lot of big rabbits in my neighborhood but I'd probably get in trouble dinging them.

 

[deadman]

Here is my M40A5 build I had done from C&H Precision weapons in the states. Its a thing of beauty. Since this pic I have added a Nightforce NXS and harris bipod.

I like it. I put an A5 stock on my .308 while I wait for an A1, but honestly I really like the ergos of it. If I get decent with it I may leave it alone, but then I need to start all over again when my new stock comes in.....or sell the A1.

 

[Don_Parsons]

Ho Hummmmm,,, I can't wait to get my project underway.

The 3 gun thing all chambered in the same caliber.

I have to quit looking at this thread incase I buy more rifles. LOL

 

[deadman]

Ok I think its fair to say I'm the weak link in my rifle shooting. Went to the range today with the TriggerTech installed, put 120 rds of 175 smk through it.

Results were:

111 yds: 4 groups of 5: .71", .97", 1.15", 1.25"

4 groups of 10: 1.05", 1.08", .964", 1.84"

218 yds: 4 groups of 5: 2.38", 3.28", 2.96", 1.52"

325 yds: 4 groups of 5: 3.57", 4.87", 2.79", 3.74"

At 218 yds my reticle covers the 3/4" orange dot on my targets, which are slightly over 3" in diameter. At 325 yds, I'm looking hard for the circles. Maybe I need to either go to a different style target that will be more visible to me. Or, I could swap on a higher magnification optic to allow me to get a better sight picture. Thoughts?

 

[ArmedGinger]

Ok I think its fair to say I'm the weak link in my rifle shooting. Went to the range today with the TriggerTech installed, put 120 rds of 175 smk through it.

Results were:

111 yds: 4 groups of 5: .71", .97", 1.15", 1.25"

4 groups of 10: 1.05", 1.08", .964", 1.84"

218 yds: 4 groups of 5: 2.38", 3.28", 2.96", 1.52"

325 yds: 4 groups of 5: 3.57", 4.87", 2.79", 3.74"

At 218 yds my reticle covers the 3/4" orange dot on my targets, which are slightly over 3" in diameter. At 325 yds, I'm looking hard for the circles. Maybe I need to either go to a different style target that will be more visible to me. Or, I could swap on a higher magnification optic to allow me to get a better sight picture. Thoughts?

A 10x scope can be a little bit of a downside and longer ranges. I'm amazed the USMC Scout Recon guys could shoot out to 1000 yards with these scopes. I was using the large Visishot targets at 300 yards, that helped a lot.

I too debated on using a more powerful optic on my rifle but there is something to me about using 40 year old technology to pull off some neat shots.

I've currently got my Sig up for sale to finance a new target I want to try out for my longer distance shooting

 

[njohnson]

At 218 yds my reticle covers the 3/4" orange dot on my targets, which are slightly over 3" in diameter. At 325 yds, I'm looking hard for the circles. Maybe I need to either go to a different style target that will be more visible to me. Or, I could swap on a higher magnification optic to allow me to get a better sight picture. Thoughts?

One thing with those mil spec reticles, especially the MST-100 Is that they are very coarse, and a small aiming mark like a 3/4” paster disappears under the cross hairs intersection. Before selling the rifle I shot a silhouette target at 600m with the MST-100 and the head was completely obscured by the cross hairs. Ditto for the M3A on my M24 clone. The P4LF in the S&B on the A5 is better.

Remember they are made to shoot centre mass on a minute of man in all sorts of crappy light conditions.

My point is that a small aiming mark can actually be moving around under the cross hairs and you don’t necessarily pick that up, which can lead to bigger groups. My best paper shooting groups with a tactical rifle was using a Mk4 that had a fine wire, 1/8 MOA dot-not very “tactical” at all, but made for shooting paper.

With these coarser reticle I actually hold off a small aiming mark, usually a 3/4” dot at 100, and try to hold a line of white like you might with iron sights. That’s where I have most of my trigger time, so maybe that’s why I tend to favour that method. I can definitely distinguish a smaller amount of movement using that approach vs burying a tiny aiming mark under a thick cross hair.

I shot 12” steel gongs at up to 1000m with the A5, although consistent hits were down at 800 to 900m, and that’s a target size well over 1 MOA but still plenty gratifying in windy central Texas. Sometimes we can be pretty hard on ourselves always expecting 1/2” cloverleafs at 100.

That said whatever AG is doing is obviously working for him!

PS, AG I like that potential new target, I need to move out of the city.

 

[njohnson]

Just for reference on target size vs reticle, Accuracy First long range course, Austin Gun Club, 12” steel gongs, 18”x12” lower “body” plates as they appear at 12x magnification at 700, 800 and 900m.

 

[deadman]

A 10x scope can be a little bit of a downside and longer ranges. I'm amazed the USMC Scout Recon guys could shoot out to 1000 yards with these scopes. I was using the large Visishot targets at 300 yards, that helped a lot.

I too debated on using a more powerful optic on my rifle but there is something to me about using 40 year old technology to pull off some neat shots.

I've currently got my Sig up for sale to finance a new target I want to try out for my longer distance shooting

I like the MST, don't get me wrong. Maybe I've been looking at this wrong though, what was considered "good" shooting for the USMC with a scope like this? Should I be happy with hitting a plate instead of chasing one ragged hole? I have no intention of competing with this rifle, never did.

 

[deadman]

One thing with those mil spec reticles, especially the MST-100 Is that they are very coarse, and a small aiming mark like a 3/4” paster disappears under the cross hairs intersection. Before selling the rifle I shot a silhouette target at 600m with the MST-100 and the head was completely obscured by the cross hairs. Ditto for the M3A on my M24 clone. The P4LF in the S&B on the A5 is better.

Remember they are made to shoot centre mass on a minute of man in all sorts of crappy light conditions.

My point is that a small aiming mark can actually be moving around under the cross hairs and you don’t necessarily pick that up, which can lead to bigger groups. My best paper shooting groups with a tactical rifle was using a Mk4 that had a fine wire, 1/8 MOA dot-not very “tactical” at all, but made for shooting paper.

With these coarser reticle I actually hold off a small aiming mark, usually a 3/4” dot at 100, and try to hold a line of white like you might with iron sights. That’s where I have most of my trigger time, so maybe that’s why I tend to favour that method. I can definitely distinguish a smaller amount of movement using that approach vs burying a tiny aiming mark under a thick cross hair.

I shot 12” steel gongs at up to 1000m with the A5, although consistent hits were down at 800 to 900m, and that’s over 1 MOA but still plenty gratifying in windy central Texas. Sometimes we can be pretty hard on ourselves always expecting 1/2” cloverleafs at 100.

That said whatever AG is doing is obviously working for him!

PS, AG I like that potential new target, I need to move out of the city.

Well, that makes sense, and it does make me feel better about my shooting. I know the reticle obscuring my target is a hindrance, and (as you mentioned) I'm sure its moving around on me while aiming. Maybe I'll see if I can find some better targets with a more visible reference on them.

That being said, my posts may not actually belong in a precision shooting forum!

 

[ArmedGinger]

I like the MST, don't get me wrong. Maybe I've been looking at this wrong though, what was considered "good" shooting for the USMC with a scope like this? Should I be happy with hitting a plate instead of chasing one ragged hole? I have no intention of competing with this rifle, never did.

The original M40A1 using M118LR ammunition was touted as a .5 MOA rifle using the Unertl/USO scope. That being said, it was up to the shooter to get there.

That said whatever AG is doing is obviously working for him!

So what you do is get one of those remote control zapping dog collars and attach it to your family jewels and give the remote to your spotter. Call your point of aim and squeeze the trigger. If you miss your spotter gives you a quick zap. Pretty soon your groups start to get tighter. May take a couple range trips though.

 

[njohnson]

“ Maybe I've been looking at this wrong though, what was considered "good" shooting for the USMC with a scope like this?”

Agreed you are probably being hard on yourself, we shoot groups for fun as recreational shooters and it’s a common way to measure improvement.

For context, USMC Sniper qualification (range portion only, leaving aside all the field craft skills they must master) is stationary FBI E type up to 1000 yards, movers up to 800. Or steel versions of the same on a UKD range. The target dimensions are a 19” x 39” paper:



So USMC standards, and what those scopes were made for are much more about range estimates, movers, wind doping and getting a first round hit on a fairly generous target but where the field conditions make for shot difficulty vs pure accuracy from a rest.

 

[tlovell]

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