The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD
- Thread starter Ustauk
- Start date
Originally Posted by Steve at Spectre LTD / Crusader Arms
Thanks for the info. We are currently looking for a replacement screw for the stop. The machining on the rifle that was sent to the YouTuber was a little rough that’s why he got that rifle so that he could beat the crap out of it and it wouldn’t really matter. It was one of our earlier ones machine in our US facility that wasn’t able to be sold to the general public. The rifle is in such high demand we can’t afford to give good rifles out that could go to paying customers.
Sending out a rifle with very poor visible machining work to make your products live fire debut online is a great way to make people doubt the quality of your work.
The rifle in Sootch's video was fired from normal shooting positions and nobody "beat the crap out of it", it was not ran around hard like GarandThumb would so you are just admitting your production quality is low and you are careless Steve.
The lower receiver on Bartok5's rifle looks like absolute dog #### and "Steve" considers that to be a "good rifle", EVERY cut the CNC machine made is clearly visible!!
Grove, we all know that you have a hard-on for either Steve, Crusader/Spectre, or perhaps it is just machinists in general that you like to crap on. Hard to say. I will simply state (as I said before) that the camera accentuates the faint machining marks that I can find on my Lower Receiver. It looks fine in person, and I have personally seen much worse on rifles approaching the Templar's price (eg. WK-180). Is it a Bren 2? Nope, but then again it didn't cost $3400 either! As I have also said before, I am satisfied with what I received for my expenditure, so why rain keep raining on everyone's parade? Why the extreme hate, Grove???
The rifle you received is clearly not made well and the machining says it all, the obvious production steps that were neglected instills severe concerns.
You may be satisfied with the rifle but everyone can see the same thing I do and its not good at all.
The amount of machining marks left visible would be acceptable when presenting a prototype but not for a final production item, wet vapor media blasting would have removed the vast majority of these machining marks and greatly enhanced the quality of the finish across the entire firearm.
Your own statement confirms other 180 pattern firearms are not well made either.
The rifles in their current state deserve no parade and should be sent back to the shop for further QC work.
Having worked in QC for firearms and ammunition production for several years I cannot ignore what I see.
You may think I'm trying to rain on everyone's parade but I'm just calling out problems so they hopefully get fixed so people end up with a great rifle at the end.
There was no intention to hurt your feelings.
Oh, don't worry about hurting my feelings, I'm a big boy.
I can understand your desire to shame the few Canadian firearms manufacturers in to taking additional steps to finely finish their products, however (at least for me) you are reaching the point of diminishing returns with your constant negativity and abrasive posts. I will simply state that you risk muting your own voice if people begin to discount what you have to say as the same old broken record.
Given the choice between paying more $$ for a finer finish or taking what I have, I'm happy with the rifle as presented. Others may demand perfection, I do not. Provided that it is accurate, I will be satisfied. We already know from the videos that it is capable of going several thousand rounds without cleaning, so reliability is pretty much a given at this point. Just how much better machined does a product need to be, when it can already do that? Besides the final finish on the Lower Receiver, where are neglected steps of the production process? The rifle performs just fine, what more ought to have been done to further improve reliability???
I have no involvement at all in the production/sales/anything of any 180 pattern firearms currently available so there is no diminishing returns for me.
As my previous post mentioned vapor media blasting would remove a huge amount of the machining marks and that is the major step being neglected or skipped entirely in the production process.
The rifles are appearing to run flawlessly and that is wonderful but they need to severely clean up the machining marks to validate the price tag they are charging.
This screen capture is from the video just uploaded by Code Of Arms showcasing their rifle in America and the finish quality demonstrated is still far below acceptable.
If proper R&D and production was completed on any of these 180 pattern rifles we wouldn't have all of these threads about all of said problems, I would love to be posting how much fun I'm having target shooting and hunting with one of these rifles but none are currently worth it in the current state of production.
On Bartok5's rifle all of the circular impressions/swirls along the magazine well, the circular impressions above the trigger guard, the pass lines just above the letters TROY on the magazine release.
The factory didn't even smooth out the big edge left around the receivers beavertail area.
You can right click on the image to open it in another tab to full size it if you need but the machining marks are extremely visible.
If this is considered extreme hate and expecting perfection well so be it, they don't deserve our money until they get their acts together.
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What review? I've offered my thoughts on the rifle as received, throughout this thread. I just need to live-fire to confirm acceptable accuracy (eg. 2 MOA with bulk 55 gr) before giving the Templar my own stamp of approval. Main points for Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms to rectify are the weight (steel side panel, Bolt Carrier), Buttstock interface (recommend Picatinny), and final surface finishing (to eliminate residual tooling marks). Otherwise, it seems to be good to go, subject to accuracy testing. It is not as finely finished as the R18 Mk2, but seems to perform just as well, possibly even better in terms of demonstrated reliability.
I’m not overly concerned with the finish. I like durability and reliability. So long as accuracy is <3 moa it’s accurate enough for me. My families land isn’t laid out to be able to shoot more then 100 yards without encountering some geographical obstacle - trees, hills, more trees. So unmagnified dots are the optic of choice.
I like the looks of the Templar, although those charging handle stop screws are out of place and reduce the overall appearance of the rifle.
(Sucks air through teeth)
I just know, if I have too many whiskeys between rotations, this will end up in my cart.
Bartok5, what is the trigger tech trigger like? Can one save a couple bills and get the mil spec?
I hear you on the CH Stop Screws - they look out of place and the Phillips heads look like a home workshop handyman solution. Even some Hex-head caps would look better...
As for the Trigger, the upgrade to the adjustable Trigger Tech is worth every penny and really changes the Templar's handling for the better. Next to the Barrel, the Trigger is probably the next most significant factor in any rifle's accuracy. The benefits of a Trigger Tech are numerous and are definitely worth the $250 upgrade, which is incidentally cheaper than you can buy the Trigger upgrade as a stand-alone purchase ($279 in most stores). My advice is to go with the Trigger upgrade. You won't he sorry, especially once you adjust the Trigger to lighten the pull!
Yup, Geissele, Timney, Elftman and others provide Trigger options in addition to the factory-offered Trigger Techs. That said, I find the adjustable nature of the Trigger Tech Triggers to be a distinct advantage that other Trigger mechanisms lack. Once you crank it down to 2.5 lbs it is super light, yet extremely crisp. That ultra crisp let-off is what sets the Trigger Tech apart for me. It is like a glass rod rather than a carrot, which is kind of how I find the Geisseles. I say each to their own when it comes to triggers, but it is nonetheless nice to see Crusader/Spectre Ltd partner up with a custom Trigger manufacturer, particularly a Canadian maker whose Triggers are taking the US market by storm. The fact that the custom Trigger option comes in at a modest discount certainly doesn't hurt!
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