The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD

[Bartok5]

The circular marks and lines in the red areas. Zoom right in. I have pretty mixed feelings personally

Zoom in?!? OK..... but seriously, who actually scrutinizes a utility rifle with their eye a quarter-inch from the surface of the metal looking for imperfections? If you want machining perfection with the Templar, I would expect that you are most likely going to have to pay more for it, as machine and operator time = $$$ and nobody works their day job for free. Machining perfection is already available in a Canadian manufactured AR180B derivative; the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk 2 retails with a very small profit margin for $2700, or $700 more than the Templar for a base rifle with mil-spec Trigger. That is the price of machining perfection, which I don't think is the Templar manufacturer's intent. I could certainly be wrong, but I doubt that Crusader/Spectre wants to compete with SAI at the same price-point when they can currently undercut the R18's MSRP by a wide margin.

Oh, and for the 3rd time, the camera very much accentuates every imperfection in the surface metal, no matter how insignificant. It looks better to the naked eye, such that I can't see much evidence of anything in person. Could it be better? Yup. Would I pay more for better? Nope. I'm happy with the rifle (subject to accuracy testing) just the way that it is. This is a utility rifle/truck gun, not a collector-grrade safe queen. A few minor surface imperfections don't bother me in the least. You should see the machine marks on the aluminum Lower Receiver of my FNC Para carbine. Now those are prominent, and yet by all accounts the FNC is a high-quality service rifle with an excellent history of use by the Belgians, the Swedes (AK5), the Indonesians, and other professional militaries. External finish is not necessarily an indicator internal quality and performance, as the FNC so aptly proves.

All of this hand-wringing over the Templar's external finish is classic CGN - much ado about nothing. We're really picking fly crap out of pepper now....

E.T.A. - The Ambidextrous Magazine Catch (and its "faulty" machining) is not a Spectre/Crusader product. It is manufactured by Troy Defense in the USA, which just goes to show you that even the big names do not necessarily produce perfection....

 

[Morc]

Any thoughts on sticking a BCM PNT trigger in a Templar/Sentinel over the basic mil-spec it comes with?
Not sure how much of an upgrade it is but I don't really need anything fancy.

I can re-use the mil-spec elsewhere.

 

[Bartok5]

Any thoughts on sticking a BCM PNT trigger in a Templar/Sentinel over the basic mil-spec it comes with?
Not sure how much of an upgrade it is but I don't really need anything fancy.

I can re-use the mil-spec elsewhere.

I've tried (and rejected) most of the mil-spec triggers with the fancy, slippery coatings. I don't find that they make enough of a positive difference to the Trigger pull over a stock mil-spec unit. Are they better than mil-spec? Yes, but IMHO they are only marginally better and not really worth the $$ requred to upgrade. If you want a decent trigger, the BCM PNT may suffice, but don't expect it to feel that much different than stock mil-spec.

A quick Google search shows the BCM Trigger Assembly available from several non-site sponsors for $110 CAD. By the time you add shipping, you are half-way to the cost of the Trigger Tech upgrade on the Templar. For basically double the cost, you get the ultimate in adjustable AR triggers. They have to be experienced to be properly appreciated. They are as precise as you could want for any precision rifle, yet they are durable enough for the heat and mechanical stress of sustained, rapid fire. Try a Templar (or anything for that matter) equipped with a Trigger Tech Trigger and you will immediately understand why I am such a fan of this Canadian product.

 

[Morc]

Thanks for the info Bartok. I'll have a look at the options and decide.

 

[KePet]

You should see the machine marks on the aluminum Lower Receiver of my FNC Para carbine. Now those are prominent, and yet by all accounts the FNC is a high-quality service rifle with an excellent history of use by the Belgians, the Swedes (AK5), the Indonesians, and other professional militaries. External finish is not necessarily an indicator internal quality and performance, as the FNC so aptly proves.

Aluminum be damned……you should have seen the machine marks in the steel of the FN-C1 that I was issued. All of the FN’s that I remember when I was in didn’t have a “perfectly” machined finish - although at that time I didn’t realize that there was any significance to it. Just figured that’s they way they all were made.

 

[Bartok5]

Aluminum be damned……you should have seen the machine marks in the steel of the FN-C1 that I was issued. All of the FN’s that I remember when I was in didn’t have a “perfectly” machined finish - although at that time I didn’t realize that there was any significance to it. Just figured that’s they way they all were made.

Excellent point! I hadn't considered the FNC1A1, but you are absolutely correct. My 8L FN C1A1 has visible surface grinding marks on the Upper Receiver, as most did. Still, they were beautiful weapons, hand-crafted old-school of Walnut and Steel by skilled Canadian hands. It honestly doesn't get any better than that!

There are countless examples of rough surface finish on firearms which otherwise function quite satisfactorily. The German G43 immediately springs to mind, as does just about anything German made during the late-war period....


FN C1A1 Upper Receiver....

 

[Bartok5]

Dupe

 

[Grove]

Zoom in?!? OK..... but seriously, who actually scrutinizes a utility rifle with their eye a quarter-inch from the surface of the metal looking for imperfections? If you want machining perfection with the Templar, I would expect that you are most likely going to have to pay more for it, as machine and operator time = $$$ and nobody works their day job for free. Machining perfection is already available in a Canadian manufactured AR180B derivative; the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk 2 retails with a very small profit margin for $2700, or $700 more than the Templar for a base rifle with mil-spec Trigger. That is the price of machining perfection, which I don't think is the Templar manufacturer's intent. I could certainly be wrong, but I doubt that Crusader/Spectre wants to compete with SAI at the same price-point when they can currently undercut the R18's MSRP by a wide margin.

Oh, and for the 3rd time, the camera very much accentuates every imperfection in the surface metal, no matter how insignificant. It looks better to the naked eye, such that I can't see much evidence of anything in person. Could it be better? Yup. Would I pay more for better? Nope. I'm happy with the rifle (subject to accuracy testing) just the way that it is.This is a utility rifle/truck gun, not a collector-grrade safe queen. A few minor surface imperfections don't bother me in the least. You should see the machine marks on the aluminum Lower Receiver of my FNC Para carbine. Now those are prominent, and yet by all accounts the FNC is a high-quality service rifle with an excellent history of use by the Belgians, the Swedes (AK5), the Indonesians, and other professional militaries. External finish is not necessarily an indicator internal quality and performance, as the FNC so aptly proves.

All of this hand-wringinig over the Templar's external finish is classic CGN - much ado about nothing. We're really picking fly crap out of pepper now....

E.T.A. - The Ambidextrous Magazine Catch (and its "faulty" machining) is not a Spectre/Crusader product. It is manufactured by Troy Defense in the USA, which just goes to show you that even the big names do not necessarily produce perfection....

Stating the obvious that Crusader/Ect are blatantly skipping on a industry standard procedure in order to pocket the extra money and send customers out inferior products is " picking fly crap out of pepper" in your mind, WOW.

EXTERNAL FINISH is a huge indicator of internal quality and performance, if the internal surfaces are just as rough as the outside that can cause bolt drag and other reliability issues, you obviously know this but refuse to admit it.

A few machining marks on a firearm is one thing but when every single pass made by the CNC machining is clearly visible that is obviously carelessness and neglect.

Dlask, ATRS, Sterling, BCL, MRA and other companies clean up these machining marks as it is industry standard, Crusader/ect is skipping or doing a very rushed job at best on this step.

Nobody is demanding perfection but we expect industry standard steps to be properly taken during the production process so you either don't understand CNC Milling or you are just being stubborn because we pointed out the major short comings on the rifle you just dumped a few thousand dollars on.

Your combativeness against the facts in front of you is hilarious, amazing coping technique!

 

[KePet]

Excellent point! I hadn't considered the FNC1A1, but you are absolutely correct. My 8L FN C1A1 has visible surface grinding marks on the Upper Receiver, as most did. Still, they were beautiful weapons, hand-crafted old-school of Walnut and Steel by skilled Canadian hands. It honestly doesn't get any better than that!

There are countless examples of rough surface finish on firearms which otherwise function quite satisfactorily. The German G43 immediately springs to mind, as does just about anything German made during the late-war period....

Well, let’s not put too much credence in my comment. I like Savage rifles as well, so we know that my tastes are a little off center.

 

[heatseeker]

What is the compatibility of the Templar lower with the 9mm liberator upper? Clearly the mag well adapter wont work, is there any plans to make a combo back like the sentinel/liberator?

 

[Bartok5]

Stating the obvious that Crusader/Ect are blatantly skipping on a industry standard procedure in order to pocket the extra money and send customers out inferior products is " picking fly crap out of pepper" in your mind, WOW.

EXTERNAL FINISH is a huge indicator of internal quality and performance, if the internal surfaces are just as rough as the outside that can cause bolt drag and other reliability issues, you obviously know this but refuse to admit it.

A few machining marks on a firearm is one thing but when every single pass made by the CNC machining is clearly visible that is obviously carelessness and neglect.

Dlask, ATRS, Sterling, BCL, MRA and other companies clean up these machining marks as it is industry standard, Crusader/ect is skipping or doing a very rushed job at best on this step.

Nobody is demanding perfection but we expect industry standard steps to be properly taken during the production process so you either don't understand CNC Milling or you are just being stubborn because we pointed out the major short comings on the rifle you just dumped a few thousand dollars on.

Your combativeness against the facts in front of you is hilarious, amazing coping technique!

Whatever, dude. What I find hilarious is your fevered insistence that Spectre/Crusader are somehow ripping off their customers by over-charging for rifles where "industry standard" practices were ignored. Your hate for Spectre/Crusader is palpable, and your denials of same are equally laughable. I don't know why you have a wild hair up your arse for that company, nor do I care, but it quite evidently colours everything that you have to say about them.

You have repeated yourself several times now regarding external finish as an indicator of internal quality, and your contention has been clearly debunked with real world examples. So what else do you have to support your singular "crusade" against Spectre Ltd? LOL...

You toss around words like carelessness and neglect pretty freely when discussing how a company manufactures a product where such practices could directly result in injury or death. The same with accusations of skipping steps in standard production processes. Careful, we wouldn't want to see you slapped with a slander lawsuit. Just saying. Stranger things have happened.

You accusing me of being "combatitive" is perhaps the the most funny thing you've said in this thread. Coming from the most pugnacious poster currently on the forum? That is rich indeed! You mistake my defence of a few machining marks for some sort of willful "blindnes" resulting from having spent $2K on a rifle, when I could care less about the money, or for that matter Crusader Arms and their Templar! To me it is just another rifle that I purchased out of mild curiousity. I needed another 5.56mm plinker AR180B derivative like I need a hole in the head, but I bought it just so that I could speak from an informed position when it comes to the Canadian-manufactured semi-automatic firearms currently available on the domestic market. The exact same reason that I reluctantly purchased and (very) briefly owned a WS-MCR. This is my retirement hobby, and that is just one way that I choose to pursue it. $2K? Meh. Neither I nor the Wife blink if a "must have" comes along costing anything under $10K. B+T apc 223 AND 308? no problem. G36? Sure! Retirement is kinda good to me that way, and I am very fortunate to be in a position where the money honestly doesn't mean that much to me....

 

[Grove]

Whatever, dude. What I find hilarious is your fevered insistence that Spectre/Crusader are somehow ripping off their customers by over-charging for rifles where "industry standard" practices were ignored. Your hate for Spectre/Crusader is palpable, and your denials of same are equally laughable. I don't know why you have a wild hair up your arse for that company, nor do I care, but it quite evidently colours everything that you have to say about them.

You have repeated yourself several times now regarding external finish as an indicator of internal quality, and your contention has been clearly debunked with real world examples. So what else do you have to support your singular "crusade" against Spectre Ltd? LOL...

You toss around words like carelessness and neglect pretty freely when discussing how a company manufactures a product where such practices could directly result in injury or death. The same with accusations of skipping steps in standard production processes. Careful, we wouldn't want to see you slapped with a slander lawsuit. Just saying. Stranger things have happened.

You accusing me of being "combatitive" is perhaps the the most funny thing you've said in this thread. Coming from the most pugnacious poster currently on the forum? That is rich indeed! You mistake my defence of a few machining marks for some sort of willful "blindnes" resulting from having spent $2K on a rifle, when I could care less about the money, or for that matter Crusader Arms and their Templar! To me it is just another rifle that I purchased out of mild curiousity. I needed another 5.56mm plinker AR180B derivative like I need a hole in the head, but I bought it just so that I could speak from an informed position when it comes to the Canadian-manufactured semi-automatic firearms currently available on the domestic market. The exact same reason that I reluctantly purchased and (very) briefly owned a WS-MCR. This is my retirement hobby, and that is just one way that I choose to pursue it. $2K? Meh. Neither I nor the Wife blink if a "must have" comes along costing anything under $10K. B+T apc 223 AND 308? no problem. G36? Sure! Retirement is kinda good that way....

Posturing a idle threat of a slander lawsuit because people have been honest about a products obvious production issues is something special, I'm flattered by your exotic word salad you prepared for me. ♥

Here is a short video explaining how these machining marks should have been dealt with during production.

Have a good day.

 

[Bartok5]

Posturing a idle threat of a slander lawsuit because people have been honest about a products obvious production issues is something special, I'm flattered by your exotic word salad you prepared for me. ♥

Here is a short video explaining how these machining marks should have been dealt with during production.

Have a good day.

LOL, nobody is "posturing" or threatening you dude. You really need to get over yourself, and at the same time understand that words have specific meaning. In order for me to credibly threaten you, I would have to be in a position to act, which I am not. I mean you no harm and I have nothing whatsoever to do with Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms or their business interests aside from being a new end-user of their product. It's not me that would be considering legal action against you, it's them. I only cautioned you because I have danced on the edge of a defamation lawsuit myself, and it doesn't take much for a business to drag you through the courts if they believe that you have negatively impacted their sales. Don't concern yourself further though, as I won't waste any more of my time alerting you to the potential pitfalls of your online "honesty".

That "word salad" debunked or refuted everything you've had to say about the Templar. I am not at all surprised that you would discount and/or attempt to belittle what I said. That's OK. I know you didn't mean it....

You have yourself a lovely weekend!

 

[James1189]

I bought my Crusader Arm sentinel a little over 2 weeks ago. I love it and haven't had a single issue with it. I've put about 250rnds thru it so far. I've also contacted Crusader arms, they are great to deal with and have very fast responses. I had the Gen1 Kodiak before this rifle. although it is heavier, this is a much better built and machined rifle I feel, also the 3/8" piston is so much stronger its awesome. I definitely don't feel ripped off. I felt ripped off when I bought that piece of crap Kodiak for $1300 and it broke itself on the second range visit.

 

[Bartok5]

I bought my Crusader Arm sentinel a little over 2 weeks ago. I love it and haven't had a single issue with it. I've put about 250rnds thru it so far. I've also contacted Crusader arms, they are great to deal with and have very fast responses. I had the Gen1 Kodiak before this rifle. although it is heavier, this is a much better built and machined rifle I feel, also the 3/8" piston is so much stronger its awesome. I definitely don't feel ripped off. I felt ripped off when I bought that piece of crap Kodiak for $1300 and it broke itself on the second range visit.

Good for you! I am assuming by your positivity that reliability must be good, but how is your accuracy? I'm thinking that the Templar and Sentinel use the same Barrel weight and twist-rate, so accuracy with the Sentinel ought to give me a preview of the Templar's performance.

 

[1ABNDT]

All this talk about weight, I handled the rifle at Taccom with the 1 arm that I have. You guys need to start lifting some weights, this is nothing compared to a 12 pound AR 10.

 

[Ustauk]

What is the compatibility of the Templar lower with the 9mm liberator upper? Clearly the mag well adapter wont work, is there any plans to make a combo back like the sentinel/liberator?

Passed your question along through Instagram, and got the following response.

Yes it will fit no problem. We will be bring the combo back once we make a new mag well adapter. But if you already have the 9mm upper any AR15 9mm adapter should work.

It tracks with an AR-15 standard magwell a standard 9 mm adapter would work. Getting anything AR-15 past CBSA may need the use of IRunGuns or another bulk importer, or Crusader 9 owners will have to wait for Crusader's adapter to try their upper with the Templar lower.

 

[James1189]

Good for you! I am assuming by your positivity that reliability must be good, but how is your accuracy? I'm thinking that the Templar and Sentinel use the same Barrel weight and twist-rate, so accuracy with the Sentinel ought to give me a preview of the Templar's performance.

yes the accuracy is very good, I think the sentinel and the templar share a lot of parts. i'm going to the range tomorrow, ill bench rest it and see how it does at 100 meters

All this talk about weight, I handled the rifle at Taccom with the 1 arm that I have. You guys need to start lifting some weights, this is nothing compared to a 12 pound AR 10.

while the rifle may not be 12lbs, i have weight it and it weighs 10lbs with just a red dot and no mag. this is no big deal to me but definitely something to think about.

 

[heatseeker]

Ustauk, thanks for the ask, appreciate it. Its the one thing that keeps bringing me back to the Templar.. The 9mm and 556 in one affordable package.

 

[Ustauk]

Ustauk, thanks for the ask, appreciate it. Its the one thing that keeps bringing me back to the Templar.. The 9mm and 556 in one affordable package.

You're welcome! Not sure if either of these will work, but here are 2 in Canada options from forum sponsors, https://www.rdsc.ca/carbine-parts/magazines/stern-defense-ar15-magwell-adapter-glock-magazine-9mm.html, https://marstar.ca/product/g-block-conversion-kit/.