The Templar Thread, 5.56 by Crusader Arms / Spectre LTD
- Thread starter Ustauk
- Start date
Hey James, have fun at the range! If you don't mind, what made you buy the Sentinel over the Templar? Was it the availability of the 9mm Upper and Mag Block?
Well, I managed to squeeze in an afternoon at the range today, despite planning to be back out there for a fun shoot with some friends on Thursday. I wanted to get some rounds through the Templar and zero it in preparation for the unveil to my buddies in a few days time. I anticipate interest in the new platform, particularly based on my range results today!
To start with, here's a pic of the Templar in its "happy place":
Machining imperfections on the Lower Receiver were more difficult for me to see in the natural light than in my Gun Room at home. I didn't even bother to attempt a photo, as I doubt that anything would have shown up. Nobody who examined the rifle today had anything negative to say about the finish. Mind you, none had read the tragic saga of "sloppy machining" as presented in this thread, so their ignorance comes as no surprise. I'll tell my friends about the controversy and see what they have to say about the finish with the rifle in-hand on Thursday. I somehow doubt that anybody is going to care much about a few tiny swirls that can barely be seen on the Lower Receiver....
Reliability with the Trigger Tech-equipped Templar was excellent, with one Failure to Fire in 200 rounds of Bulk 55 gr Aguilla 5.56mm FMJ ammo. The troublesome round fired just fine on the 2nd attempt, so no harm/no foul at this point. If I encounter a future rash of FTFs, it will be the fault of the Trigger Tech system, not the Templar rifle itself, so watch and shoot to see what develops. Right now, I blame a fussy primer for the problem, but we shall see. The rifle digested everything that I fed it, including the Bulk Aguilla, 30 rounds of 77gr IVI HPBT, 30 rounds of 69gr Federal Gold Medal Match HPBTM, and 40 rounds of Barnaul 55gr Steel-Cased FMJ. A total of 300 rounds were fired with the aforementioned single stoppage.
Ergonomics during firing were outstanding. The Trigger Tech Trigger is superb, with a glass-crisp let-off set right at 3 lbs of pull. The feel of the rifle is very solid without any rattles, inspiring confidence in the firearm. The F5 Buttstock locks up tight and there is zero slop or play with the rifle in or out of the shoulder. The optional Cheek-Riser works very well paired with an LPVO in the Kinetic Development Group (KRG) QD Mount. For my testing the optic used was the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10X SFP Low Power Variable Optic (LPVO).
Accuracy from the Templar at 100m exceeded my expectations. The new rifle performed every bit as well as the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk 2 in terms of both accuracy and reliabllity. For accuracy, 5 round groups were fired with the bulk 55 gr Aguilla load, some IVI 77 gr HPBT ammo and 69 gr Federal Gold Medal Match. I could not retrieve my targets today as there was snow on the ground and nobody around to assist me (I'm in a wheelchair). That said, I was able to measure groups against the 1" grid on the target and was able to snap some lousy but serviceable photos of the Match groups using my phone camera through my cheap 45x Spotting Scope. Not the best, but workable for the sake of grouping evidence.
Generally speaking, here's what you can expect from the Templar's 1:8 Twist, 5.56mm NATO Medium-Weight Barrel:
- Bulk 55 gr Aguilla FMJ ammo: 1.5 - 2 MOA,
- 77 gr IVI HPBT ammo: 2 MOA, and
- 69 gr Federal Gold Medal Match HPBTM ammo: 1 - 1.5 MOA.
Here are the two best (of 4) groups fired at 100m using the Federal Match ammo:
Nothing came loose and nothing broke. Reliability was excellent and accuracy was even better than expected. Subject to further reliability testing, I'd say that Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms finally have a winner in the race to ecomonoically replace the AR15 in Canadian sport shooter's hands. Areas of improvement for Crusader to work on are as follows:
1. Improve final surface finishing of the Lower Receiver to remove residual tool marks,
2. Offer to refinish stripped "rough" Lower Receivers sent in at owner's expense, free of charge as part of warranty service,
3. Reduce weight by:
- eliminating the Steel Side Panel for the Cam Track. Not required if rifles are properly factory timed and toleranced,
- Remove material from the Bolt Carrier, and
- Flute the Barrel from Chamber to Gas Block and then Gas Block to Muzzle,
4. Enhance Ambidexterity by:
- Include an ambidextrous Magazine Catch, and
-Include the proprietary Bolt Catch on both sides of the Lower Receiver,
5. Make the Buttstock Interface a Picatinny Rail,
6. Provide a folding stock that detents in the folded position,
7. Replace the Charging Handle Stop-Screw. The Philips-head Screws look like a cheap, home workshop solution and are out of place on a firearm. Replace them with Hex-Head Cap Screws or something similar, and
8. Thread the Muzzle 1/2 x 28 to accept standard 5.56mm Muzzle Devices. The current thread pitch is unknown, but is definitely not 1/2 x 28....
All in all, a highly successful, quick trip to the range for zeroing and initial reliability and accuracy testing. The Templar performed extremely well, turning in better than expected accuracy results with outstainding reliabillity. There is a lot to like about the Templar, especially if Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms are able to address some (or all?) of the points for improvement that we have collectively identified to date.
The way I see it now, if you want a rifle that looks as good as it shoots, pay the extra for the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk 2. If you can live with a few swirls in your metal finish, save yourself $700 and go with the eqivalent version of the Templar. Both rifles offer the same accuracy and reliability, so the only thing separating the two at the present time are their respective designs, the level of fit and finish/final QC. and Warranty Support. The latter remains to be seen with Crusader Arms, although initial reports are positive. SAI's Warranty and customer support has apparently been stellar to date, with free upgrades to early adopters and rapid turn-around of rifles submitted for warranty service.
To start with, here's a pic of the Templar in its "happy place":
Machining imperfections on the Lower Receiver were more difficult for me to see in the natural light than in my Gun Room at home. I didn't even bother to attempt a photo, as I doubt that anything would have shown up. Nobody who examined the rifle today had anything negative to say about the finish. Mind you, none had read the tragic saga of "sloppy machining" as presented in this thread, so their ignorance comes as no surprise. I'll tell my friends about the controversy and see what they have to say about the finish with the rifle in-hand on Thursday. I somehow doubt that anybody is going to care much about a few tiny swirls that can barely be seen on the Lower Receiver....
Reliability with the Trigger Tech-equipped Templar was excellent, with one Failure to Fire in 200 rounds of Bulk 55 gr Aguilla 5.56mm FMJ ammo. The troublesome round fired just fine on the 2nd attempt, so no harm/no foul at this point. If I encounter a future rash of FTFs, it will be the fault of the Trigger Tech system, not the Templar rifle itself, so watch and shoot to see what develops. Right now, I blame a fussy primer for the problem, but we shall see. The rifle digested everything that I fed it, including the Bulk Aguilla, 30 rounds of 77gr IVI HPBT, 30 rounds of 69gr Federal Gold Medal Match HPBTM, and 40 rounds of Barnaul 55gr Steel-Cased FMJ. A total of 300 rounds were fired with the aforementioned single stoppage.
Ergonomics during firing were outstanding. The Trigger Tech Trigger is superb, with a glass-crisp let-off set right at 3 lbs of pull. The feel of the rifle is very solid without any rattles, inspiring confidence in the firearm. The F5 Buttstock locks up tight and there is zero slop or play with the rifle in or out of the shoulder. The optional Cheek-Riser works very well paired with an LPVO in the Kinetic Development Group (KRG) QD Mount. For my testing the optic used was the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10X SFP Low Power Variable Optic (LPVO).
Accuracy from the Templar at 100m exceeded my expectations. The new rifle performed every bit as well as the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk 2 in terms of both accuracy and reliabllity. For accuracy, 5 round groups were fired with the bulk 55 gr Aguilla load, some IVI 77 gr HPBT ammo and 69 gr Federal Gold Medal Match. I could not retrieve my targets today as there was snow on the ground and nobody around to assist me (I'm in a wheelchair). That said, I was able to measure groups against the 1" grid on the target and was able to snap some lousy but serviceable photos of the Match groups using my phone camera through my cheap 45x Spotting Scope. Not the best, but workable for the sake of grouping evidence.
Generally speaking, here's what you can expect from the Templar's 1:8 Twist, 5.56mm NATO Medium-Weight Barrel:
- Bulk 55 gr Aguilla FMJ ammo: 1.5 - 2 MOA,
- 77 gr IVI HPBT ammo: 2 MOA, and
- 69 gr Federal Gold Medal Match HPBTM ammo: 1 - 1.5 MOA.
Here are the two best (of 4) groups fired at 100m using the Federal Match ammo:
Nothing came loose and nothing broke. Reliability was excellent and accuracy was even better than expected. Subject to further reliability testing, I'd say that Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms finally have a winner in the race to ecomonoically replace the AR15 in Canadian sport shooter's hands. Areas of improvement for Crusader to work on are as follows:
1. Improve final surface finishing of the Lower Receiver to remove residual tool marks,
2. Offer to refinish stripped "rough" Lower Receivers sent in at owner's expense, free of charge as part of warranty service,
3. Reduce weight by:
- eliminating the Steel Side Panel for the Cam Track. Not required if rifles are properly factory timed and toleranced,
- Remove material from the Bolt Carrier, and
- Flute the Barrel from Chamber to Gas Block and then Gas Block to Muzzle,
4. Enhance Ambidexterity by:
- Include an ambidextrous Magazine Catch, and
-Include the proprietary Bolt Catch on both sides of the Lower Receiver,
5. Make the Buttstock Interface a Picatinny Rail,
6. Provide a folding stock that detents in the folded position,
7. Replace the Charging Handle Stop-Screw. The Philips-head Screws look like a cheap, home workshop solution and are out of place on a firearm. Replace them with Hex-Head Cap Screws or something similar, and
8. Thread the Muzzle 1/2 x 28 to accept standard 5.56mm Muzzle Devices. The current thread pitch is unknown, but is definitely not 1/2 x 28....
All in all, a highly successful, quick trip to the range for zeroing and initial reliability and accuracy testing. The Templar performed extremely well, turning in better than expected accuracy results with outstainding reliabillity. There is a lot to like about the Templar, especially if Spectre Ltd/Crusader Arms are able to address some (or all?) of the points for improvement that we have collectively identified to date.
The way I see it now, if you want a rifle that looks as good as it shoots, pay the extra for the Sterling Arms International R18 Mk 2. If you can live with a few swirls in your metal finish, save yourself $700 and go with the eqivalent version of the Templar. Both rifles offer the same accuracy and reliability, so the only thing separating the two at the present time are their respective designs, the level of fit and finish/final QC. and Warranty Support. The latter remains to be seen with Crusader Arms, although initial reports are positive. SAI's Warranty and customer support has apparently been stellar to date, with free upgrades to early adopters and rapid turn-around of rifles submitted for warranty service.
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I actually didn't know that the Templar existed when I bought my Sentinel lol, but I would have got the sentinel anyways because of the 9mm upper that goes with it. it would fit right on and be able to use the trigger tech trigger on the lower. The Templar does look really cool though imo.
Bartok5 i saw you today at the range haha, i was shooting a few stations down from you! just realized it was you. crazy.
Well, belated greetings, LOL! I'm guessing it was the wheelchair that gave me away....
Well, next time please bother me and say hello. I don't bite and my reach is limited! Seriously though, I enjoy meeting new folks and discussing what we're each shooting. You're welcome to try out the Templar (or any of my stuff for that matter) should we cross paths again!
Hey Ustauk,
The F5 Buttstock was pretty much rock-solid during firing today. I put 300 rounds down-range and the Buttstock was both comfortable and supportive throughout. If it weren't for the flopping around when folded, I could live with the F5 Stock. It didn't flex at all during firing.
Cheers,
Mark / bartok5
In response in numerical order.
Economically replace the AR15 while costing easily 2 to 4 times as much as a lot of the AR15's that were available for sale that functioned perfectly from the factory.....
1. So now you agree that they need to clean up the tooling marks, that's funny.
2. Why should the customer have to pay anything extra even shipping cost because the factory neglected steps in order to make a higher profit?
3. Well this confirms they don't know how to machine a rifle to proper tolerances and time them properly.
4. Absolutely agree on ambidextrous controls.
5. Agree completely as well.
6. Don't use the cheapest $30 stock clone you could find just to get your product out the door, it can't even stay folded over.
7. Cheap parts being used again because heck why not save those few extra bucks.
8. The rifle is advertised as having a 18.7" Threaded 1/2-28 barrel so that is quite interesting and I wonder what the explanation for that is.
You once again reaffirm the failures in the production process but still claim this rifle is well worth it and other people should buy them, that assessment is completely illogical!
Why don't you tell Steve to make a CONTACT US area on his website, like every other retailer in Canada has clearly visible.
Kind of hard to sell your goods when nobody can simply contact your business without having to chase you down through 3rd party social media apps.
EDIT - IM BLIND when I don't get much sleep! Silly me!
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Thre is a "contact us" option right on the Crusader Website - take a look around before spouting off. As usual, you are in such a hurry to bash the company that you have missed the obvious. I have used their contact option twice and received responses within 24 hours both times....
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The AR15 is currently not a option, so comparing a rifle that is available with one that is not is a fool's errand. So what if the AR15 used to cost $700 discounted due to market flooding? You can't buy one today, so it is irrelevant. IRRELEVANT. Are you always this obtuse??
1. No, I don't agree. I put that in there just to shut you up. Sadly, it didn't work! LOL...
2. Subject to negotiation with the company. Make it too expensive for them and they won't do it, will they?
3. No, it means that they put in the steel insert to be on the safe side because people #####ed and moaned about scratches in the aluminum Upper Receiver walls of their mis-timed WK-180s. As I have said repeatedly, a properly timed and toleranced AR180 does not require the steel as no contact will occur between the Cam Pin and the Receiver Wall.
4. That's nice.
5. How charming. Harmony is a lovely thing...
6. Show us a bettter option. Everyone wants the ACR stock and the F5 is the next best thing. It is perfectly fine in actual use, aside from the fact that it flops around when folded. Fix the flop by adjusting the hinge moulding, and the F5 will be fine.
7. I suspect that was the only appropriately sized Chicago-type screw that Spectre Ltd could find commericially off the shelf at the time. Time to make something better looking in-house if necessary.
8. Nobody knows, not even Spectre Ltd. I contacted them via the "Contact" feature on the web-site and they responded that it "should" be 1/2 x 28, which it definitely is not.
I haven't "reaffirmed" bugger all, except in your mind. There are no "failures" in the Templar production process, as the rifle is reliable, appears to be durable and is definitely accurate. There are areas for minor improvement, that's it, that's all. Thre are always areas for minor improvement, so what? The Templar is good to go out of the box. That is my recommendation and I am sticking to it. The Templar is clearly a superior choice to the WK-180, the WK-180 Gen 2 and the WS-MCR. The quality of fit and finish aside, the Templar is very nearly the equal of the SAI R18 Mk2. Time willl tell in that regard....
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Hmmm.... that's a bit of a tough one, as the Bren 2 and the Templar are very different creatures. Apart from one being more akin to a carbine and the other a rifle, the carbine was designed by a team of professional firearms engineers and is manufactured in a state-of-the-art factory, whereas the Templar rifle is a "boutique" low-production item churned out on CNC machinery by Spectre Ltd. assisted by various small subcontractors. That said, here are my observations:
- the Bren 2 is much lighter weight and recoil is therefore more pronounced.
- both rifles feel solid in the shoulder. The stock flops around on the Templar when folded whereas the Bren 2 Buttstock locks up on the Shell Deflector
- The Charging Handles are similarly located. I prefer the Bren 2's Trigger Guard Bolt Release, rather than the Templar's Thumb-operated lever.
- The Templar's optional, adjustable Trigger Tech Trigger is far superior to the Bren 2 Trigger, which is very good in its own right.
- Both rifles shoulder quickly and point naturally. Length of Pull is adjustble with both platforms. The Templar's weight induces shooter fatigue much more quickly than the lightweight Bren 2.
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Sounds like a good day with the Templar and Sentinel.
This is what the Liberals don’t understand - the cathartic experience of shooting a well designed firearm at the range or in the wilderness and analyzing the data afterwards.
Tight groups, or a successful hunt, this is a great hobby that can quickly translate into essential utility when required, but that doesn’t fit the Liberals wussification of the population.
This is what the Liberals don’t understand - the cathartic experience of shooting a well designed firearm at the range or in the wilderness and analyzing the data afterwards.
Tight groups, or a successful hunt, this is a great hobby that can quickly translate into essential utility when required, but that doesn’t fit the Liberals wussification of the population.
