The Infidel - update w first group

Great job guys; I wouldn't stress over peoples criticism of price point. No matter what anyone says or does, there will always be those who expect Wall-mart Pricing on Rolex watches. It just doesn't work that way, small production; better materials and higher quality control = higher prices and better customer satisfaction. These are the people who cant see the difference between a $89 spikes Tactical receiver and a custom cnc'd lower either. I say good job, great product...start making cnc uppers already ;)

Attention Wall-mart shoppers...
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quality products come from Alberta...
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Having heard repeated testimonials regarding the quality of workmanship coming from Rick's shop, I have no doubt that the "Infidel" will be built to the highest standards.

As good as the action may possibly be, price does play a factor in the marketplace. "Infidel" has a lot of competition at that price point. Not everyone either wants or has the money to spend $1,900 for a bolt action receiver.

I look forard to seeing the first CGN member build a rifle from an "Infidel".
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
As some have posted, at this point we figure the actions will be in the $1900.00 range, but as also mentioned this is preliminary. We feel that these actions are easly in the same league as Dakota, BAT, or Kelby, which are all priced very close to what ours are.

Part of the reason for the higher costs of many Canadian made products is a total lack of incentives from various government bodies to help in any way.

I am very well acquainted with Glenn Seekins of Seekins`Precision, and Glen Harrison of Defiance Machine as well as the guys at Montana Rifle. There are reasons they are located in the states they are. Same with Nightforce, BAT, Lilja and Dakota/Nesika. There are state, county and municipal incentives and help to encourage small business to locate there.
In Canada and especially Alberta, and even worse Calgary there is absolutely NO incentive to set up here. No tax breaks , labor cost assistance, no building rent subsidies as the states of Montana, Idaho or North Dakota offer.

At a SHOT show dinner with Glenn and Glen we got into a discussion about the costs of shop rental and wages as well as finance possibilities for machines. I could have 10 times more shop space and 3 times more employees and 3 times more machines if we moved to Idaho, all for the same monthly costs as I pay out now, based on these incentives. Only 2 times more of everything if we moved to Montana or N.D.

Purchasing small quantities of steel also increses the costs.
Our tax rates are higher as are our wages from what is paid in the USA.

Getting anything from the FBDB or local financial lenders is impossible in this business, so having to finance machines through non conventional means is more expensive.
This all adds up to a higher production cost, add the higher production costs to a small market item with a very lmited market place and the costs escalate higher.

We did not get into making actions to be the cheapest, we did not get into making actions because we wanted to be big manufacturers and sell worldwide.
We got into making our own actions because we felt we could offer a superior product to those who want the best and are willing to pay for it. Not everyone is content with a Chevy, some of us like Caddys or better. Not everyone can justify or afford true high end gear and I understand that, and for those that do not want to spend the $$ on something unique, of very high quality and Canadian made , thats fine.
For those who do, you won't be disappointed.
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Producing an action is producing a firearm so that ultimately means one has become a "manufacturer" and needs to be licensed here as such. I could max out the bandwidth of this site with tales of financing challenges and would concur that BDC, FBD, EDC, etc are as worthless as Rick notes and their refusal to deal with this type of business has nothing to do with your balance sheet.

Traditional forms of financing from chartered banks and credit unions are available however the raised eyebrow factor is high. Machinery producers such as HAAS have decent (albeit not great) financial tools to assist. Non traditional financing is expensive as is noted and carries greater risk to the borrower and an at least perceived higher degree of risk to the lender making it problematic as well. Those that make it find a way to get it done and don't let the first "no" stop them.

I am not certain I agree one could have double and even triple the shop space, employees and machinery for the same cost if located in MT, SD, ND, ID, etc. These places do offer incentives but I have never seen any that would allow for this type of cost to growth.

Small runs of material are indeed more expensive however I think raw materials represent a fairly small cost in the big picture unless you get into things like Titanium.

Being able to deliver high quality goods in a timely fashion I think will be more important to the ultimate consumer of this as opposed to the cost.
 
I don't understand the fixation on price... If Rick is setting the price for the action at 1900 - big deal. Not very many guys here are going to buy an action and then build the rifle themselves... it is very likely that they are going to build the whole rifle with ATR and frankly I think it is more important to see what Rick is going to charge for a complete build vice one part. Personally I think it makes good business sense to charge more for separate parts to encourage complete builds in his shop vice having people buy just his parts and get someone else to build their rifle.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
John
Take this as it is intended, not any sort of flame.
Our actions are superior we believe to Surgeons. The tolerances are held to a tighter degree, the 15-5 material is ALOT more expensive than the CM that Surgeon uses. AND they are fully finished. The Surgeon actions still retain the Remington extractor and the 1s I have here came in like a puzzle ( some assembly required to say the least)
I am not knocking the Surgeon actions they are a great action, but lets compare apples and apples.

I KNOW our actions are more expensive that some, but also know they are ALOT tighter toleranced and the QC is far more stringent.


Also you fail to take into account the conversion of currency and the costs of export, which ARE a factor.
Most firearms related goods are a fair bit less expensive in the US partly thanks to the DOS.
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Rick, I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

Surgeon uses 4340 Aircraft Grade which is vacuum remelted after its made the first time. You better reprice that against 15-5, I have some 2" so I know what it costs and how hard it is to get.
You offer your Infidel fully finished, their RSR is stainless and therefore also finished, they Cerakote in house for $125 for the other actions.
Yes Surgeon bolts have the Rem extractor, that is a good thing and I would pick the Rem factory style extractor every time over the M16 or Sako on a Rem 700 clone.
I highly doubt your having any trouble assembling the pieces ;) I realize they are offering in the white and unassembled. This is preferred anyhow, when do you ever not inspect the whole action when building a new rifle? If its 4340CM, it needs to be finished and we know most will be a different coating or color, why blue it then strip it to paint it? As mentioned they offer Cerakote in house for $125.

You say "ALOT tighter toleranced and the QC is far more stringent" and "lets compare apples and apples". Lets do that and look at the Surgeon RSR instead of their 591 single shot because it has tight tolerances, no integral rail and no integral base. It comes to $931 WITH rail. It is stainless and therefore finished, and if you custom order it, I believe they will keep it a single shot for no extra cost.

I don't mean to sound 'against' you because I'm not, I'm thrilled you guys are making an action. More pics and specs for us?
 
cycbb486 said:
inteligent response.
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You might want to add an L to your intel l igent there professor.

Besides, I'd say my statement pretty well sums it up. Sure it's a little pricey. Are there other actions out there cheaper?? Sure. Are they as good?? Maybe?? That's nothing to do with it. ATR builds a product, and sets his price to what he wants. If no one buys it, the price would likely come down. But I'll bet there's repeat customers lining up with cash in hand, probably offering to pay more so they can have it first. And like I said before, if YOU think it's too much, or simply can't afford it then don't f**king :runaway: buy it.
 
BigUglyMan said:
Rick forgot to add that, sadly, a lot of the guys that can't or won't pony up for the best find some perverse glee in trying to run down the product they can't afford. Likely this results from jealousy of those of us who can afford the best and don't shrink from saying that we can spend that kind of money and we will. I find it offensive for some noobsausage to accuse people of "a screw job" because, as far as I can see, the above noted sausage cannot afford the product. I suppose that guys like Rick should work for nothing so we can save money for ourselves?

I would buy an action from Rick in a heartbeat because, a) I know how fussy he is about getting things right - hence why this product took best part of 3 years to go from the drawing board to the display table, b) I've seen examples on this board of Rick standing behind his products, and c) I can afford to pay a premium not only for quality but to support a local small business. I try to buy from small outfits as often as possible, for everything from the Stevens 200 I bought from Reliable to the Merkel 140AE I bought from TradeEx (and the $230 a box Norma ammo I got from TSE to feed the beast - ouch boys!). When that dummy in Washington slams the door on firearm enthusiasts North of the border I'm happy to know that I will have at least one tame gunsmith and a few trusted retailers to take care of me and my needs.

Remember - the toes you step on today may belong to the @ss you have to kiss tomorrow! :D
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I give two big thumbs up to any Canadian manufacture who has gone through the financial anquish and mental strain of seeing through to production a quality action.
 
Whatever floats

rig_pig69 said:
You might want to add an L to your intel l igent there professor.

Besides, I'd say my statement pretty well sums it up. Sure it's a little pricey. Are there other actions out there cheaper?? Sure. Are they as good?? Maybe?? That's nothing to do with it. ATR builds a product, and sets his price to what he wants. If no one buys it, the price would likely come down. But I'll bet there's repeat customers lining up with cash in hand, probably offering to pay more so they can have it first. And like I said before, if YOU think it's too much, or simply can't afford it then don't f**king :runaway: buy it.
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your boat.............

It may be early stages on setting pricing but when I can order a proven product with my options and have it at my door for about 2-300.00 less that is where my money will go. I have no loyalties as to where the product is made.

I am not about to throw my money out on a unproven product and one where claims are made as to how great it is. When it starts showing up on the match reports as a BR action (as it supposedly has BR tolerances) I may have to eat crow. Till then.......... BAT is my choice.

The hottest actions out there are American made and when claims are made that the INFIDEL is at BR tolerances with a CAPITAL B, I say prove it.

So many appear to be long range experts why not build a FULL BLOWN Long Range BR rifle and put it to the test in Montana at there 1000 yard BR matches????????

Until then my hard earned money goes on actions that are proven and not claimed to be superior regardless if it is US made.

We will tend to disagree on occasions and this is one of those times.

Maybe this action will one day end up being the TACTICAL GURU'S cup of tea......
 
Wow, you guys want to talk tolerances should look at a Barnard. Even the GP which is 2" x 12" for 50BMG has tighter bolt fit than a BAT.

One of the best things about making stuff in Canada is that it is generally very easy to export, much easier than exporting from the USA. Therefore a bigger market than the builders in the USA have, if it is taken advantage of!
 
It's always good to see one of our own build a custom action. It's been done before and not new. Swindlehurst, McLennan, Armtech and others.

Rick is building a product which he believes the market will buy. I don't see a problem with that. He also has a clientele which he knows wants his products. Supply and demand, makes perfect business sense to me.

I don't even know Rick, but rest assured if his products don't stand up, they will soon be shot down by the shooting community in no time. The shooting community is famous for criticizing anything less than perfect and will frag a gunsmith/dealer/business in short order.

Good luck to you Rick.
 
PEI ROB said:
Rick, I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points.

Surgeon uses 4340 Aircraft Grade which is vacuum remelted after its made the first time. You better reprice that against 15-5, I have some 2" so I know what it costs and how hard it is to get.
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i get a chuckle out of how some people throw around "aircraft grade" as if its some huge deal. aircraft grade doesn't mean a metal has been though a V.A.R process and with todays use of the word it doesn't mean much besides the fact that alloy is used on an aircraft.

some engine parts and other critical parts will be made out of steel which has been though a V.A.R process however a lot of other parts made from the same material wont.

so by that standard any machine shop has tons of "aircraft grade" material, 4140, 4130, 4330, 4340. i mean if rick really wanted to he could market his action as 15-5PH aircraft grade because 15-5ph is a very common alloy on aircrafts and there is no actual specification on "aircraft grade"

as for 4340 vs 15-5ph ( both being either V.A.R or E.S.R) 15-5 is typically more expensive and harder to work with.
 
Rick,

Just wondering why you went with the stock remington safeties and not a bolt mounted 3 position one? (I am assuming that this is primarily a tactial action (ie it can accept mag systems))
 
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