Crusader Arms Crypto

I personally don't understand how the process of gun manufacturing works from initial idea to being put in production and sold, in Canada. Given the perilous times we are in, wouldn't it be in the best interests of companies to provide both the design and working prototype to the RCMP for analysis and comment before proceeding with mass producing them?

I don't quite understand how something can be classified as non-restricted, but not be in the FRT. So it would seem to me to be poor business practice to go through the R&D and productive costs to put something to market only to have it immediately banned by the RCMP. This is not necessarily a case of a government OIC here - sounds like this company may have put the cart before the horse. I'm just trying to understand why the process wouldn't be get the RCMP approval and classification first before deciding to produce the product, particularly when the RCMP holds the power to make it prohib immediately.
 
thegazelle said:
I personally don't understand how the process of gun manufacturing works from initial idea to being put in production and sold, in Canada. Given the perilous times we are in, wouldn't it be in the best interests of companies to provide both the design and working prototype to the RCMP for analysis and comment before proceeding with mass producing them?

I don't quite understand how something can be classified as non-restricted, but not be in the FRT. So it would seem to me to be poor business practice to go through the R&D and productive costs to put something to market only to have it immediately banned by the RCMP. This is not necessarily a case of a government OIC here - sounds like this company may have put the cart before the horse. I'm just trying to understand why the process wouldn't be get the RCMP approval and classification first before deciding to produce the product, particularly when the RCMP holds the power to make it prohib immediately.
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Submitting a gun to the RCMP lab for a new FRT # could take 1-3yrs possibly more.
That slows down a companies ability at getting products to market.

I'm surprised any legal advice they got did not suggest this project be halted.

There are so many AR15 parts it would be hard for the RCMP to not label it as a variant , considering what they have previously labeled as such.
 
FatCatsDad said:
Submitting a gun to the RCMP lab for a new FRT # could take 1-3yrs possibly more.
That slows down a companies ability at getting products to market.

I'm surprised any legal advice they got did not suggest this project be halted.

There are so many AR15 parts it would be hard for the RCMP to not label it as a variant , considering what they have previously labeled as such.
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Thanks FCD. That makes sense. If there is no FRT on it, then not sure how it can be sold by retailers as non-restricted, unless they go by purely the basic OAL of the firearm and such and make such a presumption. I am surprised things actually can be sold this way - I always thought that the RCMP had to clear it before it can be sold. Guess the companies are looking at the letter of the law with C21 and also previous legislation and trying to meet simply the letter of the law without looking at previous precedent or interpretative nuance for the RCMP labs (ie. what else they have deemed AR15 variants despite articulated differences).

If I was a consumer...unless I had deep pockets with money to burn, I can't see how this risk/reward proposition is worth it.
 
FatCatsDad said:
Submitting a gun to the RCMP lab for a new FRT # could take 1-3yrs possibly more.
That slows down a companies ability at getting products to market.

I'm surprised any legal advice they got did not suggest this project be halted.

There are so many AR15 parts it would be hard for the RCMP to not label it as a variant , considering what they have previously labeled as such.
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The ATRS Modern Sporter was labelled NR until someone decided to change it in the FRT, my understanding was that if an AR upper/lower were not able to mate and fire to the Sporter it wasn't an AR. Even though it does share a lot of compatible parts.
 
robab said:
The ATRS Modern Sporter was labelled NR until someone decided to change it in the FRT, my understanding was that if an AR upper/lower were not able to mate and fire to the Sporter it wasn't an AR. Even though it does share a lot of compatible parts.
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LPC gave the horse marching orders its well known, that said never forget that the lab tried ducttaping an ATMS to an AR15 to try and make it an AR15 variant.
 
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Explain something to me, I'm dead serious. Receiver is the firearm. Yes/No? Making a receiver is making a firearm. Yes/No? Shipping a receiver to a client is shipping a firearm. Yes/No? There is no FRT for Crypto, so it is a receiver of non yet classified firearm. Yes/No? It is not classified just because the process has not gone through yet. Yes/No?

So let's say a friend of a friend knows someone who could buy this, he would put a rifle around it, gets a stopped by a law on some occasion and says: "oh this is not an AR variant - now banned prohib ultra dangerous device, it is completely innocent non restrict rifle with no FRT # for you to check". Is this how you expect the whole situation to work out for you? Just curious.
 
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
How will it work out? Who knows? If laddie were stopped, and there was a disagreement over whether or not the thing was prohibited, no doubt it would be held until a determination made. Very unlikely the Crown would proceed with any charges.

The good folks who run the FRT are no doubt aware of the Crypto. Dollars to donuts there is a FRT enter already prepared, just waiting for a final determination about classification, before publishing.

I see the receiver sets are $995. If someone had a now OIC'd, unusable AR-15, it could be stripped for parts, and the parts used to make up what might be a n-r rifle Use with discretion. If a prohibited determination were eventually made, loss could be limited to the cost of the receiver set.

If the rifles appear in dealers' racks at the beginning of September, there is going to be a classification announced sooner rather than later.
 
thegazelle said:
I am surprised things actually can be sold this way - I always thought that the RCMP had to clear it before it can be sold.
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FRT is a requirement for import, but it is not a requirement for sale. Because this is a domestically manufactured it does not need an FRT because it doesn't need to be imported.

The problem is the lab WILL issue it an FRT at some point. This exact scenario just played out with the RSQ1 rifles - they were sold as NR without an FRT, and the lab just got around to giving them an FRT - and guess what! Its Prohibited. People dropped $4k on these rifles because the manufacturer told them its NR, and they're probably not going to get any sort of compensation.

tiriaq said:
If the rifles appear in dealers' racks at the beginning of September, there is going to be a classification announced sooner rather than later.
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Seems the RSQ1 rifles took like 2 years to get an FRT?
 
They might actually allow it being the only gun in existence that has 5 round max magazines. The problem this creates is that they can now say their definition is legitimate because a gun does fall within it. Before nothing did...
 
That is entirely possible. They could even use it as proof that prohibitions aren't based on appearance alone.
It wasn't a bad move to go with a proprietary magazine.
 
"So let's say a friend of a friend knows someone who could buy this, he would put a rifle around it, gets a stopped by a law on some occasion and says: "oh this is not an AR variant - now banned prohib ultra dangerous device, it is completely innocent non restrict rifle with no FRT # for you to check". Is this how you expect the whole situation to work out for you? Just curious."
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Your friend is basically screwed.
It will be a slam-dunk win for the Crown.

The fact that it did not yet have an FRT when he bought it will not be much of a defense argument.
He still bought a prohibited AR-15, four years after they were banned.

Possibly he could cut a deal with the Crown?
Testify against Crusader Arms. Say that they tricked him into thinking it was non-restricted.
Your friend probably doesn't want to be "that guy" though.
 
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