Even us, gun nutz, are lost in the laws of firearms sometime because they are absolute nonesense and defy any logic. Now imagine a LEO that has to apply every other laws, logic or not. You bet they are lost in it too! That being said, I'd prefer a LEO saying to me: well hold on a second I'm not sure about that one and you might just be right, than them being all BS and saying something without actually knowing.
LAR 15 mags are no longer directly refered to in the RCMP special bulletin
- Thread starter Travel240z
- Start date
Even us, gun nutz, are lost in the laws of firearms sometime because they are absolute nonesense and defy any logic. Now imagine a LEO that has to apply every other laws, logic or not. You bet they are lost in it too! That being said, I'd prefer a LEO saying to me: well hold on a second I'm not sure about that one and you might just be right, than them being all BS and saying something without actually knowing.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
“The 50 Beowulf Magazine
In the case of AR platform rifles chambered for 50 Beowulf calibre, the magazine is adapted from the original 5.56×45 NATO version of the magazine, generally by one or more of the following: widening the space between the magazine lips, changing the angle of the magazine lips and changing the feed angle of the magazine follower. The adaptations more efficiently feed the much larger diameter 50 Beowulf calibre cartridge. However, the original ability to contain and feed 5.56×45 mm NATO cartridges has not been deleted and the magazines remain serviceable for that purpose.
The 50 Beowulf cartridge is centrefire and the AR platform rifles which use that calibre are semiautomatic. Thus, cartridge magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre firearms are prohibited if more than five 50 Beowulf cartridges can be contained in the magazine (subparagraph ii, as above).
Magazines for the AR platform which contain four or five 50 Beowulf calibre cartridges present a more complicated situation. Such magazines will generally contain 11 and 14 cartridges respectively of 5.56×45 mm NATO (or 223 Remington) calibre. Since the 50 Beowulf calibre magazines are adapted from the original 5.56×45 mm NATO design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation, such magazines are prohibited if they contain more than five 5.56×45 mm NATO cartridges. The magazines are in effect dual calibre magazines and will be prohibited if they exceed five shots capacity of either calibre.
Magazines have recently been manufactured in, or imported into Canada bearing markings suggesting they are exclusively designed for 50 Beowulf ammunition, and at four or five shot capacity, are non-prohibited magazines. This is simply not the case. All magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre AR platform firearms presently on the Canadian market are prohibited devices.
AR Platform Upper Receivers
You had also asked about 50 Beowulf calibre AR upper receivers. Your understanding is correct that they are not prohibited.”
In the case of AR platform rifles chambered for 50 Beowulf calibre, the magazine is adapted from the original 5.56×45 NATO version of the magazine, generally by one or more of the following: widening the space between the magazine lips, changing the angle of the magazine lips and changing the feed angle of the magazine follower. The adaptations more efficiently feed the much larger diameter 50 Beowulf calibre cartridge. However, the original ability to contain and feed 5.56×45 mm NATO cartridges has not been deleted and the magazines remain serviceable for that purpose.
The 50 Beowulf cartridge is centrefire and the AR platform rifles which use that calibre are semiautomatic. Thus, cartridge magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre firearms are prohibited if more than five 50 Beowulf cartridges can be contained in the magazine (subparagraph ii, as above).
Magazines for the AR platform which contain four or five 50 Beowulf calibre cartridges present a more complicated situation. Such magazines will generally contain 11 and 14 cartridges respectively of 5.56×45 mm NATO (or 223 Remington) calibre. Since the 50 Beowulf calibre magazines are adapted from the original 5.56×45 mm NATO design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation, such magazines are prohibited if they contain more than five 5.56×45 mm NATO cartridges. The magazines are in effect dual calibre magazines and will be prohibited if they exceed five shots capacity of either calibre.
Magazines have recently been manufactured in, or imported into Canada bearing markings suggesting they are exclusively designed for 50 Beowulf ammunition, and at four or five shot capacity, are non-prohibited magazines. This is simply not the case. All magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre AR platform firearms presently on the Canadian market are prohibited devices.
AR Platform Upper Receivers
You had also asked about 50 Beowulf calibre AR upper receivers. Your understanding is correct that they are not prohibited.”
TV-PressPass
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Mountains, Alberta
He's citing a letter received by a grey market importer (who's name cannot be spoken) back in November last year that was signed by a manager at Specialized Firearms Support Services. The importer was denied an IIC by Foreign Affairs Canada and was unable to import their mags. I don't know what specific model and manufacturer they applied for.
There was plenty of uproar about this back when it happened, and the consensus then was that a letter from a manager does not make for law. Tiraq said it pretty darn well:
- There is no publicly released bulletin from the RCMP.
- To date, there is no blanket prohibition of Beowulf magazines.
- There are some that are outright questionable, though.
- You will have to wait and see what develops.
Exactly the mail that I was talking about. I just don't buy it as there is no such thing as dual purpose magasine in the law. Also a guy that was charged (CGNer) has been cleared by the court, he has posted his story on the board somewhere. They also are freely for sale by different manufacturer on many canadian based online gun stores.
I think that if they were prohibited the RCMP would already have stopped the selling, wouldn't they?
Just my opinion tho, I'm no legal expert.
I think that if they were prohibited the RCMP would already have stopped the selling, wouldn't they?
Just my opinion tho, I'm no legal expert.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
http://calibremag.ca/rcmp-prohibit-50-beowulf-magazines/
The member in question was not "cleared by the court" the charges were dropped. Thus his case does not present any legal precedent as your post suggests. It would only set a precedent if it went to trial and a judge made a ruling. Since it was dropped prior to trial by the crown no precedent has been set to guide future cases.
People "freely" sell switchblades, nunchucks, ninja stars, and butterfly knives in stores in Canada too. Those are all prohibited weapons as well. Simply saying "because this item is for sale here means it is legal or not prohibited" is not correct.
You are correct your opinion is your own and you are not an expert. The RCMP Firearms Program and the technicians who make rulings are, in fact, considered "experts" on firearms. Their opinion is that the beowulf magazines are prohibited. If called to court they'd testify to such. At that point whose opinion is worth more to the court yours, as the accused, or the RCMP FP technicians?
Personally I have too much to lose to take that chance. If you don't than that is fine.
Like I've said before on this topic I am not telling you what to do. I am simply making people aware of the "determination" or "opinion" of the RCMP FP so they can make an informed decision on whether or not they want to use these magazines. That is all.
Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Please stop spreading this bad info...every time you do a kitten dies.
This incident took place with LAR mags and happened long before the beowulf letter was written. It was a case of the attending officer not being aware of the law.
SquidMeister
CGN Regular
- Location
- New Soviet Albertistan
No the incident was with beowulf magazines and the person charged was my friend. The beowulf letter was released a couple days after he was charged. That aside, besides that letter, there is no official prohibition on beowulf magazines, ive used them at the range next to LEOs doing thier training and they don't do so much as ask me why I shoot more than 5, I show them the calibre stamping and the special bulletin 72 and they go back to their business.
It was merely the interpretation of the law by the CFP, not an actual change in law. There are numerous retailers still importing and selling beowulf magazines to this day, many of them cgn sponsors.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
It's not bad info. It is legitimate information as opined by the RCMP FP. It is confirmed as coming from the RCMP FP.
No it did not. It was a member here and it was 50 beowulf magazines. Please stop spreading this bad info.
SquidMeister
CGN Regular
- Location
- New Soviet Albertistan
It's still not actual law, there is no "dual purpose" magazine laws set out, so on paper, beowulfs, purpose built, are still 100% legal.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I've not presented it as "law". I've presented it for what it is - the opinion of the RCMP Firearm Program (people who classify firearms) that the magazines are prohibited. It is their opinion that all Beowulf magazines in Canada are prohibited.
I don't want to be the one to test their expert opinion in court if it came to that. If you do then have at 'er.
Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
I thought it was referring to the incident a while back on CGN where a member had LAR mags confiscated by the RCMP - by its limited description in this thread it sounded very similar.
And you are certain there are retail stores openly selling prohibited knives (switchblades,butterfly knives, etc.) to any Tom, ####, or Harry in Canada? This is surprising to me. I agree that just because something is for sale, doesn't necessarily mean it is not prohibited. But if, as you state, "all beowulf magazines are prohibited now" can you explain why there hasn't been anything other than this one single letter to one single importer regarding these magazines? It doesn't seem plausible for RCMP to communicate the prohibition of something possessed by thousands of Canadians across the country in this manner. It seems more plausible that the writer of that letter choose his words poorly and/or didn't fully understand what he was stating, especially in light of the whole "dual-purpose" concept that he throws around.
SquidMeister
CGN Regular
- Location
- New Soviet Albertistan
Like I said before, opinion=/=law, my friend was charged for his beowulf magazines when this all started, but the charges were dropped and magazines returned to him when they realized that they had nothing legal to go on, and the charges were dropped long after this e-mail broke.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Which is great. I am glad the charges against your friend were dropped.
However it doesn't set any sort of legal precedent or preclude someone from being charged with the same thing in the future.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
100%. I'm a knife-guy and I've seen many retail stores selling switchblades and butterfly knives. Knives that are unquestionably prohibited. I know my way around knives and I would never consider "assisted opening" prohibited.
You only have my word to go on on this but I wouldn't say this if I hadn't seen it.
Sure it is quite possible. However these guys are considered the "experts" in firearms classifications. I wouldn't want to be pitted against them in court.
Runningfool
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Thanks. I'm not a knife guy so that is why I was curious. Appreciate your response.
Punisher-One
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
To clarify I am not talking about "big box" stores like CTC, Bass Pro, Cabelas, etc.
This reminds me about when magazine capacity changes came into effect several years ago. I was a supervisor LEO and we (the police) were only given the magazine size restrictions without any specific details in how the mags were to be converted. I was a "gun guy" even back in the day, I pressed the issue with my supervisors as to what would be considered a proper/legal conversion. The best test that we came up with was that as long as a "tool" was required to undo the conversion as opposed to ones fingers it "should be ok". Now that didn't sit well with me or my co workers however no additional info was supplied in spite of my request to the RCMP for detailed conversion requirements. I was told the only way to get a specific ruling was to charge the person and wait for expert opinion in court and finally a judges finding of guilt or innocence. I never did charge anyone with an "improper conversion". Phil.
pittboomer
Regular
- Location
- chilliwack
Thank you
